I've read a lot of different things about this. What is the truth. I'm not fond of the hot soapy water cleaning technique, so any help will be appreciated. I've also been told that quick twist inline muzzleloaders won't shoot patched balls either. What is your take on this? I've got a couple of medals from our local club for the informal muzzleloader silhouette matches that I shot with my Black Diamond. The rules are that you can use any rifle as long as you use a patched ball and metallic sights. I've produced 4" groups at 100 yards with a round ball and 60grs of Pyrodex Pistol. I won't say that's always the norm, but I'm not the best with open sights, even if they are peeps. Do the round balls seem to shoot OK in the inlines with a moderate charge?
The truth on "bore seasoning"
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7,804 Posts
Hi, hciK:
I'm not the most experienced smokepoler around, but Bore Butter - Wonder Lube does build up. A friend was doing a lot of shooting before his bypass op. and got his rifle built up until he could hardly load it, and accuracy went to pot. It took him several hours and several brushes to get down to bare metal.
My T/C Hawkin flinter was well used when I got it. It's pretty hard to inspect a muzzleloader's barrel, but I finally got a look by sliding a disc of oiled paper down to the beech plug and putting a Maglite bulb in through the flashhole bushing port. (Turn off the head.) The barrel looked like it had several large pits in it. I checked again after shooting several hundred balls with Young Country 103 patch lube and the "pits" had disappeared. The "pits" must have been lumps of Wonder Lube bore conditioning. Oh for a proper bore scope. The patches aren't cut up as much either.
A Maglite bulb isn't long enough for a caplock barrel. My friend uses a "grain of wheat bulb" from Radio Shack to reach through the drum.
Some folks haven't had a problem with a build up. I suppose they brush aggressively each time they clean and don't let a build up get started. Apparently carburetor cleaner cuts it fast.
Round balls shoot as long as they don't strip the rifling, in theory. So you can't push a ball as fast in a fast twist barrel as you can in a slow twist, in theory. It sounds like your 60 gr. charge is working great, but how does a 100 gr. load shoot?
I posted some thought on water and soap here:
http://beartoothbullets.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=20597#post20597
Bye
Jack
I'm not the most experienced smokepoler around, but Bore Butter - Wonder Lube does build up. A friend was doing a lot of shooting before his bypass op. and got his rifle built up until he could hardly load it, and accuracy went to pot. It took him several hours and several brushes to get down to bare metal.
My T/C Hawkin flinter was well used when I got it. It's pretty hard to inspect a muzzleloader's barrel, but I finally got a look by sliding a disc of oiled paper down to the beech plug and putting a Maglite bulb in through the flashhole bushing port. (Turn off the head.) The barrel looked like it had several large pits in it. I checked again after shooting several hundred balls with Young Country 103 patch lube and the "pits" had disappeared. The "pits" must have been lumps of Wonder Lube bore conditioning. Oh for a proper bore scope. The patches aren't cut up as much either.
A Maglite bulb isn't long enough for a caplock barrel. My friend uses a "grain of wheat bulb" from Radio Shack to reach through the drum.
Some folks haven't had a problem with a build up. I suppose they brush aggressively each time they clean and don't let a build up get started. Apparently carburetor cleaner cuts it fast.
Round balls shoot as long as they don't strip the rifling, in theory. So you can't push a ball as fast in a fast twist barrel as you can in a slow twist, in theory. It sounds like your 60 gr. charge is working great, but how does a 100 gr. load shoot?
I posted some thought on water and soap here:
http://beartoothbullets.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=20597#post20597
Bye
Jack
I'm really only interested in using the round balls for practice/matches so I don't know what it will do with 100 grains. I suspect I'd be burning holes in my patch with that load. I have not been able to retrieve any patches as is, but I see no evidence of leading. I shot in a silhoutte match today, there where only 8-9 shooters, most of them where blown away by the fact that a quick twist inline took the gold with a patched ball. EVERYONE else was shooting traditional rifles, even though most said they had a modern rifle at home.
I found some rust in my bore previously, nothing major, but there none the less. I cleaned the bore with JB bore paste and light oil and made sure as I could be that there was no oil left in the bore when I was done. I am still not getting the results that Bore Butter promises. It's easy to examine the bore in my rifle as it has a removable breech plug. I've been using the Bore Butter and the natural type cleaner. Every time I run a wet patch down my barrel before shooting I'm getting what looks to be some evidence of light corrosion on the patch. I'm using T/C's pre-lubed patches because I'm new to the patch and ball deal, and I'm too lazy to be lubing patches. It was something of an accomplishment for me just to start using the powder measure instead of pellets! The barrel is easy to clean on this rifle because patches can be pushed through when the breech plug is out, but I don't know what to do about what I percieve to be corrosion even though I'm following the directions to a "T"
I found some rust in my bore previously, nothing major, but there none the less. I cleaned the bore with JB bore paste and light oil and made sure as I could be that there was no oil left in the bore when I was done. I am still not getting the results that Bore Butter promises. It's easy to examine the bore in my rifle as it has a removable breech plug. I've been using the Bore Butter and the natural type cleaner. Every time I run a wet patch down my barrel before shooting I'm getting what looks to be some evidence of light corrosion on the patch. I'm using T/C's pre-lubed patches because I'm new to the patch and ball deal, and I'm too lazy to be lubing patches. It was something of an accomplishment for me just to start using the powder measure instead of pellets! The barrel is easy to clean on this rifle because patches can be pushed through when the breech plug is out, but I don't know what to do about what I percieve to be corrosion even though I'm following the directions to a "T"
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kciH,
With an in-line I can see why you would prefer not to use the soap & water method. With my Hawken-style rifle it is quite easy to take the barrel off, remove the nipple and snail cleanout screw and then just put the breech end in a bucket of hot soapy water and use piston power to draw the water up the bore with the ramrod. As I stated in another thread, I used this method for about twenty years with no probs. Often I just used Crisco as lube, and at one point I used Hodgdon Spit-Patch, which both worked well with hunting loads (100gr) on an Ox-Yoke patch.
Then when I started trying the "natural" lubes like Wonder Lube and cleaning with B-P solvent I started having troubles like you are having. It ended up pitting my bore to the point that it isn't useful any more.
BTW, I had (I can't find it now) a little bitty bore light you just drop down the muzzle. The only part of the bore you can't see is right at the flash hole.
FWIW, I'm no expert. This is the only muzzleloader I've ever had. ID
With an in-line I can see why you would prefer not to use the soap & water method. With my Hawken-style rifle it is quite easy to take the barrel off, remove the nipple and snail cleanout screw and then just put the breech end in a bucket of hot soapy water and use piston power to draw the water up the bore with the ramrod. As I stated in another thread, I used this method for about twenty years with no probs. Often I just used Crisco as lube, and at one point I used Hodgdon Spit-Patch, which both worked well with hunting loads (100gr) on an Ox-Yoke patch.
Then when I started trying the "natural" lubes like Wonder Lube and cleaning with B-P solvent I started having troubles like you are having. It ended up pitting my bore to the point that it isn't useful any more.
BTW, I had (I can't find it now) a little bitty bore light you just drop down the muzzle. The only part of the bore you can't see is right at the flash hole.
FWIW, I'm no expert. This is the only muzzleloader I've ever had. ID
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Hi, Gents:
I've seen that red stuff on the patches when I use pre-Wonder Lubed patches, but not with Young Country 103 lube. Some folks say it's burnt Wonder Lube residue, but it looks like rust to me! However, that's the color of the centre of a fired patch, so there may be sometime to this theory.
The easiest way to lube patches is to put a stack in a small tin can (pizza mix) and melt the lube into them in a double boiler. You can do a hundred at a time.
Patches only go 20-30 feet down range. Were you expecting them to go further and not looking close enough to the shooting bench? Then there was the time my Chrony quit, and I found a patch on top of the rear sensor. That was at 10 feet.
Bye
Jack
I've seen that red stuff on the patches when I use pre-Wonder Lubed patches, but not with Young Country 103 lube. Some folks say it's burnt Wonder Lube residue, but it looks like rust to me! However, that's the color of the centre of a fired patch, so there may be sometime to this theory.
The easiest way to lube patches is to put a stack in a small tin can (pizza mix) and melt the lube into them in a double boiler. You can do a hundred at a time.
Patches only go 20-30 feet down range. Were you expecting them to go further and not looking close enough to the shooting bench? Then there was the time my Chrony quit, and I found a patch on top of the rear sensor. That was at 10 feet.
Bye
Jack
IDShooter,
I don't have a problem performing the hot water washing, it's a simple process with an inline, moreso than with a fixed breech rifle I would have to imagine. It's a pain, but tolerable I guess. The issue I have with it is that when I immerse the plastic, fiber optic front sight of the rifle into the hot water, bad things happen. I'm not knocking TC here, because I love the rifle and many other of their products, but the front sight and ramp are both made of plastic. When you make a rifle with a suggested cleaning process of immersing the front sight in very hot water, why would you make it ouf of plastic? I guess I'll have to go back to the hot water method. It was a lot more convenient to just clean the bore with some natural cleaner and run a bore buttered patch up and down the bore a few times before putting the breech plug and nipple back in.
I don't have a problem performing the hot water washing, it's a simple process with an inline, moreso than with a fixed breech rifle I would have to imagine. It's a pain, but tolerable I guess. The issue I have with it is that when I immerse the plastic, fiber optic front sight of the rifle into the hot water, bad things happen. I'm not knocking TC here, because I love the rifle and many other of their products, but the front sight and ramp are both made of plastic. When you make a rifle with a suggested cleaning process of immersing the front sight in very hot water, why would you make it ouf of plastic? I guess I'll have to go back to the hot water method. It was a lot more convenient to just clean the bore with some natural cleaner and run a bore buttered patch up and down the bore a few times before putting the breech plug and nipple back in.
KCiH - When I get a new m-loader the first thing I do is clean the barrel and everything with soapy HOT water. I have to wear a leather glove to keep from being burned when holding the barrel. I then rinse w/ boiling pure water. Wait till the barrel drains and dries, it won't be long. While everything is still real hot, I swab w/ bore butter so that it really sucks into the metal. I now consider the barrel and plug, etc, to be seasoned. I NEVER again use soap, no more than I would when washing a seasoned cast iron skillet. I will occassionally use just pure boiling water to reduce the build up and finish up w/ a new swipe of butter, but I don't do that much. My guns stay loaded w/ powder and ball at all times year round. I keep the hammer down on the nipple w/ a piece of inner tube as a sealing gasket, and keep tape over the muzzle always thus preventing the intrusion of moisture from breech or muzzle. This system has never failed me, even after a couple of years the suckers go off instantly. By the way, I have lots of fun shooting patched RB's w/ 60 gr. ffg at stuff that's 40 or 50 yards away. This w/ my 1 in 32 twist barrel. I don't use that load hunting, I use the belted conicals w/ 100 gr. ffg, but the squib load RB's sure are fun, accurate enough for plinking, and a lot cheaper. See ya
Mainer,
Thanks for the input on this. From the advice I'm getting on here, I think I need to start over again with a fresh hot soapy water clean for one last attempt. I'm certain there is no petrochemical products left in the bore, the problem I'm having is that the bore butter does not seem to be giving me the corrosion protection that I need. I used to use the HOT water method which led me to a problem with the plastic front sight and ramp that T/C, who's products I love, unwisely decided to provide as standard issue on a rifle that would have it's muzzle imersed in hot water. I've since taken care of this problem by replacing the front sight and ramp with a set from Williams, which took a little doing to make the ramp match the fat muzzleloader barrel.
Thanks again for all the input on this matter.
Thanks for the input on this. From the advice I'm getting on here, I think I need to start over again with a fresh hot soapy water clean for one last attempt. I'm certain there is no petrochemical products left in the bore, the problem I'm having is that the bore butter does not seem to be giving me the corrosion protection that I need. I used to use the HOT water method which led me to a problem with the plastic front sight and ramp that T/C, who's products I love, unwisely decided to provide as standard issue on a rifle that would have it's muzzle imersed in hot water. I've since taken care of this problem by replacing the front sight and ramp with a set from Williams, which took a little doing to make the ramp match the fat muzzleloader barrel.
Thanks again for all the input on this matter.
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1 Posts
Is TC's bore butter the same stuff as wonderlube 1000plus?
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7,804 Posts
Hi, Muzzlestuff:
Welcome to the board. I skipped over your post yesterday and thought I'd get back sooner.
It's the same. I've heard they've changed the formula a couple of times, and they use a stiiffer blend on the wads compared to the stuff in tubes. At least it was when I tried it several years ago.
Check the 4th Q&A here: http://www.oxyoke.com/wonderlube.html
Bye
Jack
Welcome to the board. I skipped over your post yesterday and thought I'd get back sooner.
It's the same. I've heard they've changed the formula a couple of times, and they use a stiiffer blend on the wads compared to the stuff in tubes. At least it was when I tried it several years ago.
Check the 4th Q&A here: http://www.oxyoke.com/wonderlube.html
Bye
Jack
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13 Posts
KCIH, if you use pyrodex and warm water only and compound it with bore butter you will ruin this rifle in time.
Pyrodex is not totaly water soulibable,and bore butter is a patch lube and nothing else.
Pyrodex contains some chemical called percholite or sumthin like that and it will not come totaly clean.It may look lean but it will cause deeep pitting after extended use.
Clean with a 90% rubbing alchole found at any drug store,then dry patch and use Brakefree clp to protect the barrel.
The best info i can give on the round ball accuracy is Dutch Schultz.
I think this is the link www.bpaccuracy.com
Pyrodex is not totaly water soulibable,and bore butter is a patch lube and nothing else.
Pyrodex contains some chemical called percholite or sumthin like that and it will not come totaly clean.It may look lean but it will cause deeep pitting after extended use.
Clean with a 90% rubbing alchole found at any drug store,then dry patch and use Brakefree clp to protect the barrel.
The best info i can give on the round ball accuracy is Dutch Schultz.
I think this is the link www.bpaccuracy.com
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7,804 Posts
Hi, Gents:
Potassium Perchlorate. A poisonous crystalline compound, KClO[3], used as an oxidizing agent, a bleach, and a disinfectant and in making explosives, matches, and fireworks.
It liberates chloride ions when it's fired, which, when combined with sodium or potassium ions, create salt, which rots barrels. Fellow name of Bill Knight aka Mad Monk wrote a chemistry textbook on black powder and the various substitutes over on the old Shooters.com. Pyrodex is the most corrosive of all.
Bye
Jack
Potassium Perchlorate. A poisonous crystalline compound, KClO[3], used as an oxidizing agent, a bleach, and a disinfectant and in making explosives, matches, and fireworks.
It liberates chloride ions when it's fired, which, when combined with sodium or potassium ions, create salt, which rots barrels. Fellow name of Bill Knight aka Mad Monk wrote a chemistry textbook on black powder and the various substitutes over on the old Shooters.com. Pyrodex is the most corrosive of all.
Bye
Jack
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87 Posts
Thanks Jack , I knew there was a reason I didn't like pyrodex besides being somewhat gummy. Also someone had mentioned about lubing their patches !! I tried that when I first got in too Blackpowder but what I found was that on real cold days the patch would actually stick to the ball and I could not hit the broadside of a barn. I have just spit lubed then since and have not had any trouble
Bob
Bob
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Its The Real Thing
There is no substitute for a good women, a good rabbit and squirrel dog, and genuwine black powder.
If the woman can tan hides, cook and make corn likker, it won't get no better.
There is no substitute for a good women, a good rabbit and squirrel dog, and genuwine black powder.
If the woman can tan hides, cook and make corn likker, it won't get no better.
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13 Posts
Jack thanks for the reply.the Mad Monk is the fellow who educated me and many others over on the now dead shooters forum.
He has taken barrels that were seasoned in borebutter and pyrodex and cut them in half.What a mess they were.
I dont shoot pyrodex,i shoot triple seven now which also contains the same chemicals as pyro but in very reduced amounts.So they need to be cleaned with some thing besides soap and water.
I have goex and aint never had problems with it with soap and water but the triple seven is more consistant on velocity and fouling from can to can.Dont always want to buy 25# of powder at once.
The triple seven seems to be the best sub powder made so far.Hasnt got the nice aroma as the black powder but it does make good smoke.
If we want to keep are smoke poles in good shape for years to come we need to over come the seasoning myth that has ruined many of gun.
He has taken barrels that were seasoned in borebutter and pyrodex and cut them in half.What a mess they were.
I dont shoot pyrodex,i shoot triple seven now which also contains the same chemicals as pyro but in very reduced amounts.So they need to be cleaned with some thing besides soap and water.
I have goex and aint never had problems with it with soap and water but the triple seven is more consistant on velocity and fouling from can to can.Dont always want to buy 25# of powder at once.
The triple seven seems to be the best sub powder made so far.Hasnt got the nice aroma as the black powder but it does make good smoke.
If we want to keep are smoke poles in good shape for years to come we need to over come the seasoning myth that has ruined many of gun.
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1,594 Posts
Bore butter
I have used the bore butter for storing in between matches, of interest I used to have a 1-48 54 tc hawken and used 530rb and .020 patch with a load of 120gns of p pyrodex and it shot 3inches at 100yds wasn't supposed to but did. This was my deer load for years. I almost always shoot black powder but have expiermented with all the new stuff to come along, black canyon I shot a lb of it without cleaning the bore on a CVA .50 I bought for 25$. It shot well but was a tad slow and you had to load it with very heavy pressure if you wanted consistancy, also the shelf life was a year and it went to hades. The end result, I don't use bore butter for shooting just for in between shoots, can't get around the cleaning chore. Take care and have fun. Swany
I have used the bore butter for storing in between matches, of interest I used to have a 1-48 54 tc hawken and used 530rb and .020 patch with a load of 120gns of p pyrodex and it shot 3inches at 100yds wasn't supposed to but did. This was my deer load for years. I almost always shoot black powder but have expiermented with all the new stuff to come along, black canyon I shot a lb of it without cleaning the bore on a CVA .50 I bought for 25$. It shot well but was a tad slow and you had to load it with very heavy pressure if you wanted consistancy, also the shelf life was a year and it went to hades. The end result, I don't use bore butter for shooting just for in between shoots, can't get around the cleaning chore. Take care and have fun. Swany
Gentlemen,
I am currenly shooting a Rem 700ML, blue, not stainless. To clean I use Windex with Vinegar. I cut up blue paper shop towels for cleaning patches. After cleaning and drying the bore, I preserve with BreakFree CLP. If I suspect plastic sabot build up, I put a foam ear plug on the nipple, drop the hammer, set the gun upright in the corner of my workbench and fill the bore with carb cleaner. Let it soak for an hour, pour it out, dry, lube and put away.
1:28 twist shoots round balls great w/50grain charges of 2Fg.
And I agree that Pyrodex should be the powder of last resort. I prefer real BP.
Mule
I am currenly shooting a Rem 700ML, blue, not stainless. To clean I use Windex with Vinegar. I cut up blue paper shop towels for cleaning patches. After cleaning and drying the bore, I preserve with BreakFree CLP. If I suspect plastic sabot build up, I put a foam ear plug on the nipple, drop the hammer, set the gun upright in the corner of my workbench and fill the bore with carb cleaner. Let it soak for an hour, pour it out, dry, lube and put away.
1:28 twist shoots round balls great w/50grain charges of 2Fg.
And I agree that Pyrodex should be the powder of last resort. I prefer real BP.
Mule
So i guess none of you like TC maxi ball and maxi hunter with the lube in it? So the TC moosemilk looking stuff(#13 bore cleaner) not good(its a form of moosemilk right)? How you intergret it if you do use it since most you guess don't use it i don't think.
#13
bravo2,
If you haven't noticed, shooters, reloaders and bullet casters are a bunch of tightwad scroungers. I have almost been run over picking a wheel weight up in the street. TC #13 is a good cleaner. For the price, I can buy four times as much Windex. And Windex works just as well or better. The more I scrounge, the more I can afford to shoot
When I want to shoot big lead bullets, I use Lee REAL or Mini's cast from soft lead-roof flashing. See, it's a tightwad scrounger thing.
Shoot Safe!
Mule
bravo2,
If you haven't noticed, shooters, reloaders and bullet casters are a bunch of tightwad scroungers. I have almost been run over picking a wheel weight up in the street. TC #13 is a good cleaner. For the price, I can buy four times as much Windex. And Windex works just as well or better. The more I scrounge, the more I can afford to shoot
When I want to shoot big lead bullets, I use Lee REAL or Mini's cast from soft lead-roof flashing. See, it's a tightwad scrounger thing.Shoot Safe!
Mule
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