To Neck Turn or Not To Neck Turn
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Scroll down to the bottom of this page, and you will see several "similar threads" that have a wealth of information, FYI. That should help you find what you are looking for.
I'm going to move this thread into the Handloading forum for you.
I'm going to move this thread into the Handloading forum for you.
That is the question! Why should I? What will I gain or lose. What are the procedures from start to finish.
Do I neck size or full length size after I shoot and reload.
Any help would be greatly appreciated or recommend any reading material.
Do I neck size or full length size after I shoot and reload.
Any help would be greatly appreciated or recommend any reading material.
IMO, the deciding factor is: neck turn for what?
Most factory chambers don't require it, most chambers on bench rest rifles do.
Another reason to neck turn is if you are making brass for a cartridge from another caliber. For example, if you decide to make some 25-06 cases from 30-06 brass, you may have to neck turn.
I don't neck turn for factory chambers unless the rifle unless the rifle is a really accurate varmint/target rifle, and the possibility of improving groups by 1/10th of an inch matters (and would be apparent).
Generally, you neck turn fired cases before you resize, although that's not a hard and fast rule.
Neck turned cases in factory chambers usually wear out quicker than un neck turned cases - you are expanding and resizing the necks further on the neck turned cases, and they will crack sooner than unturned cases.
Most factory chambers don't require it, most chambers on bench rest rifles do.
Another reason to neck turn is if you are making brass for a cartridge from another caliber. For example, if you decide to make some 25-06 cases from 30-06 brass, you may have to neck turn.
I don't neck turn for factory chambers unless the rifle unless the rifle is a really accurate varmint/target rifle, and the possibility of improving groups by 1/10th of an inch matters (and would be apparent).
Generally, you neck turn fired cases before you resize, although that's not a hard and fast rule.
Neck turned cases in factory chambers usually wear out quicker than un neck turned cases - you are expanding and resizing the necks further on the neck turned cases, and they will crack sooner than unturned cases.
Unless you need to neck turn to make the case fit the chamber, I consider the procedure a waste of time. For normal production rifles some accuracy may be had sorting cases for uniform neck thickness.
Case Prep Sequence.
1) Sort according to weight.
2) Sort according to concentricity.
3) True case heads.
4) Square & equal depth primer pockets.
5) If neck turning do it now.
6) Resize, I prefer neck sizing using either a bushing die or Lee collet die.
7) Trim to length.
8) Ream and debur flash holes.
Case Prep Sequence.
1) Sort according to weight.
2) Sort according to concentricity.
3) True case heads.
4) Square & equal depth primer pockets.
5) If neck turning do it now.
6) Resize, I prefer neck sizing using either a bushing die or Lee collet die.
7) Trim to length.
8) Ream and debur flash holes.
O Boy, I am a novice re-loader. I reload for< 308, .300 Win Mag, and 7mm Mag. No competition shooting , punching paper and hunting, just trying to get the best groups as I can. Why not? All cases were shot in my factory rifles. I am always looking to improve and learn more.
As mentioned, you can scroll to the very bottom of this page and see lots of good information on this topic.
Some things in life are a "why not" proposition, but neck-turning isn't one of them. If you don't know why you would need to do it, then you don't. Fire a round in your chamber, resize only as much as is needed to chamber again, and you're good-to-go. Neck turning is essentially for competition shooters with chambers cut with tight neck clearances.
You wouldn't put a class III hitch on a Ford Fiesta...and you don't neck turn unless it's indicated.
Some things in life are a "why not" proposition, but neck-turning isn't one of them. If you don't know why you would need to do it, then you don't. Fire a round in your chamber, resize only as much as is needed to chamber again, and you're good-to-go. Neck turning is essentially for competition shooters with chambers cut with tight neck clearances.
You wouldn't put a class III hitch on a Ford Fiesta...and you don't neck turn unless it's indicated.
Yeah, groups like that out of powerful magnum rifles are as good as it gets...neck turning is not going to improve on them appreciably.
I own an L&M neck turner also. I used it to make 6PPC ammo out of the Lapua 220 Russian. You have to have one for that. As far as everyday ordinary ammo (factory replacement type ammo) there is no reason to turn the necks. In my opinion uniforming the necks does one thing, and that one thing does not help accuracy. The thing is, it removes metal from the neck. This factory ammo was already formed for the barrel intended and was uniform to chamber it was intended for. But I say, go for it. If it trips your trigger then by all means do it.
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If you shoot that tightly to start with, small improvements may show up. Which ones do or don't matter depends on the individual gun. It also depends how many rounds you are putting into each group. If it is 3/8" for 10 rounds, then you almost certainly will benefit from small tweaks. If it is just 3 rounds per group, then the statistical uncertainty makes it an unknown as to whether you will see an improvement or not.
People always like to say their gun can shoot X inches or Y moa without saying for how many shots in a row it will do this. Where the error sources are random, these numbers actually vary with group size because the larger the number of rounds you put in each group, the more chances you are giving random extremes and outliers to appear. So, average group size tends to increase with the number of shots per group, even in zero wind and even if the shooter never makes a mistake. As a result, saying I've got a 3/8 inch 3-shot group gun and saying I've got a 3/4" 20 shot group gun, tends to be saying about the same thing, on average.
The above is why professional measures of precision of guns and ammunition use radial standard deviation or the smallest circle that covers 50% of the shots on the paper as the evaluator. The idea is to eliminate the more variable extremes and outliers the large test group size (often 100 rounds) permits to appear. As a result, for a given gun and lot of ammunition, those two kinds of circles tend to remain much more constant in size as you increase the sample size than overall group diameter does.
I suggest you make some ammo that is as perfect as you can to compare to what you roll now to see if you can improve group size. Rather than invest in an outside neck turning tool, invest in a measuring tool that will let you sort your cases by neck wall thickness variation. The tool will work with all chamberings and will always be useful for comparing new and old lots of brass anyway. Use the tool to sort out the best 20% and the worst 20% of your cases for uniformity of neck wall thickness. Load them identically and see if you can tell a difference between the groups they print on paper. I would shoot 15 shot groups for statistical validity purposes. You'll get some big holes in the center this way, but should be able to tell a difference more easily, if there is one. If you can't tell a difference most of the time, then case neck wall runout isn't the biggest source of error in your system anyway and you need to look somewhere else for further improvement. If you later identify that source of error and get that further improvement, then go back and retry the top and bottom 20% neck wall runout brass to see if it then shows a difference.
People always like to say their gun can shoot X inches or Y moa without saying for how many shots in a row it will do this. Where the error sources are random, these numbers actually vary with group size because the larger the number of rounds you put in each group, the more chances you are giving random extremes and outliers to appear. So, average group size tends to increase with the number of shots per group, even in zero wind and even if the shooter never makes a mistake. As a result, saying I've got a 3/8 inch 3-shot group gun and saying I've got a 3/4" 20 shot group gun, tends to be saying about the same thing, on average.
The above is why professional measures of precision of guns and ammunition use radial standard deviation or the smallest circle that covers 50% of the shots on the paper as the evaluator. The idea is to eliminate the more variable extremes and outliers the large test group size (often 100 rounds) permits to appear. As a result, for a given gun and lot of ammunition, those two kinds of circles tend to remain much more constant in size as you increase the sample size than overall group diameter does.
I suggest you make some ammo that is as perfect as you can to compare to what you roll now to see if you can improve group size. Rather than invest in an outside neck turning tool, invest in a measuring tool that will let you sort your cases by neck wall thickness variation. The tool will work with all chamberings and will always be useful for comparing new and old lots of brass anyway. Use the tool to sort out the best 20% and the worst 20% of your cases for uniformity of neck wall thickness. Load them identically and see if you can tell a difference between the groups they print on paper. I would shoot 15 shot groups for statistical validity purposes. You'll get some big holes in the center this way, but should be able to tell a difference more easily, if there is one. If you can't tell a difference most of the time, then case neck wall runout isn't the biggest source of error in your system anyway and you need to look somewhere else for further improvement. If you later identify that source of error and get that further improvement, then go back and retry the top and bottom 20% neck wall runout brass to see if it then shows a difference.
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Most of us never see a magnum that prints under 3/4" and here you have two. Take very good care of your barrels - frequent cleaning, don't get them hot and don't leave firing residue in barrels and you should get a longer barrel life.
Don't FULL LENGTH size, you want to have your dies just bump the shoulder back about .001 to .002"
Magnums typically eat barrels for breakfast and some eat them faster than others. I suspect you will find the 7 Mag barrel will open up first on equal number of rounds.
When your groups start to open you may find benefit in a copper removing solution to take out the copper build up.
You can buy such commercially or make your own for about 1/10th the cost of the commercial stuff.
http://www.shootersforum.com/gun-cleaning/84978-home-made-bore-cleaner.html
read first and second thread, The Ed's Red is THE stuff for general cleaning and I leave my bores wet with it. Also excellent on locks and oher mechanisms. Next is Humpy's White for copper removal.
The Janitor's Strength 10% ammonia is only available from Ace Tru Value Hardware stores and comes in quarts and gallons. The above thread calls for Dawn, my original forumula calls for Ivory Dish Detergent. (2oz per quart of 10% ammonia)
Don't FULL LENGTH size, you want to have your dies just bump the shoulder back about .001 to .002"
Magnums typically eat barrels for breakfast and some eat them faster than others. I suspect you will find the 7 Mag barrel will open up first on equal number of rounds.
When your groups start to open you may find benefit in a copper removing solution to take out the copper build up.
You can buy such commercially or make your own for about 1/10th the cost of the commercial stuff.
http://www.shootersforum.com/gun-cleaning/84978-home-made-bore-cleaner.html
read first and second thread, The Ed's Red is THE stuff for general cleaning and I leave my bores wet with it. Also excellent on locks and oher mechanisms. Next is Humpy's White for copper removal.
The Janitor's Strength 10% ammonia is only available from Ace Tru Value Hardware stores and comes in quarts and gallons. The above thread calls for Dawn, my original forumula calls for Ivory Dish Detergent. (2oz per quart of 10% ammonia)
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