[simcoe]

I was on another forum and there is a bit of a disagreement on the loading of Trailboss powder. IMR load data shows a max load for 45 colt of 5.8gr at about 12,700psi with a 250/255gr bullet. Also on IMR website (same site as load data) there is a couple paragraphs describing how to come up with "your" reduced load using said powder. This is accomplished by determining the space your bullet occupies in the case and filling the case with powder to that point. (NO COMPRESSING) weigh this amount and this becomes your MAXIMUM load. Use 70% of this amount for a start load and work up toward your max load looking for the most accurate loading for your gun. My measurements are: 45 colt starline brass, 255gr Lee RNFP, I can get 8.5gr of trailboss up to bottom of bullet with no compression, this would be my MAX load, 70% of this is 5.9gr as a start load. As you can see this is over the max load info of 5.8gr. in the load data. WTF over.. anybody got an answer for this one?? Don't say call Hodgden, tried that, they ain't talkin..Another question, if the 5.8gr. load has approx the same pressure as say, 8gr. of Unique why is the recoil so much less? Seems like every time I increase pressure in a load the recoil factor goes up...I may be sly like fox, but I'm also smart like tractor..

 

[broom_jm]

Maybe the load data takes into account much deeper seating of the bullet than your loads? Does the bullet you're using have two crimp grooves? I'm just speculatin...

 

[evandailey]

I was on another forum and there is a bit of a disagreement on the loading of Trailboss powder. IMR load data shows a max load for 45 colt of 5.8gr at about 12,700psi with a 250/255gr bullet. Also on IMR website (same site as load data) there is a couple paragraphs describing how to come up with "your" reduced load using said powder. This is accomplished by determining the space your bullet occupies in the case and filling the case with powder to that point. (NO COMPRESSING) weigh this amount and this becomes your MAXIMUM load. Use 70% of this amount for a start load and work up toward your max load looking for the most accurate loading for your gun. My measurements are: 45 colt starline brass, 255gr Lee RNFP, I can get 8.5gr of trailboss up to bottom of bullet with no compression, this would be my MAX load, 70% of this is 5.9gr as a start load. As you can see this is over the max load info of 5.8gr. in the load data. WTF over.. anybody got an answer for this one?? Don't say call Hodgden, tried that, they ain't talkin..Another question, if the 5.8gr. load has approx the same pressure as say, 8gr. of Unique why is the recoil so much less? Seems like every time I increase pressure in a load the recoil factor goes up...I may be sly like fox, but I'm also smart like tractor..

This may or may not be the answer, but the article which published the formula you are stating, from what I understand, was for bottle neck rifle cartridges NOT pistol cartridges. I know Trail Boss is a fine pistol powder, but in the article where Hodgdon discussed that formula they were only talking about rifle loads. Perhaps it was not intended to be only for rifles, but that's all they discussed.

 

[simcoe]

Nope, says rifle and pistol. Straight from Hodgden web site. Possibly that "70%" info was put there for calibers where no load data is available but it still contradicts itself. Also read that you can fill the (any?) case full of trailboss (no compression) and it still won't be an overcharge. So is this saying that 5.8gr in 45 colt has 12,750 psi ( their data Max.) but going up to 8.5gr. (what I can get under my bullet w/o compressing) is still staying below max. pressure for 45 colt? Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[broom_jm]

Another factor that might be complicating your search is that the old 45 Colt has at least two different levels of power, based on what firearm you're shooting. Some reloading manuals show two distinct sets of data, with the Contender/Ruger loads creating nearly twice as much pressure.

I'd say their 5.8gr load is the one they feel is safe in any gun chambered in that round. If they list an exact charge for a given cartridge and bullet, that's what I'd stick with, especially if it was accurate. It's not like you need a lot of velocity from a 45 Colt to get the job done.

 

[langenc]

I have the article from Handloader #265-was a late fall 2010 publication(they don't put a month on the mag like most-just a number).
Titled-Reduced Rifle Loads with TRAIL BOSS by Charles E Petty.

The author had info about Trail Boss (TB) indicating it was for cowboy action shooting-PISTOLS and wanted to try it in RIFLES. He says a call to Hodgdon employee Ron Reiber told him to go ahead "jump in w/ both feet" - cast bullets in most old 'dash' cartridges-ie 32-40, 25-35, 35-55 etc. Another call to Hodgdon and the author asked about TB in CF w/ jacketed bullets. No one could think of a reason why it wouldn't work.

Quote from article ""Fill the case to the bottom of the bullet and weigh it. That is your maximum load. Then take 75 percent of that and that is your starting load. Cant get in trouble that way"" said Reiber.

The author emphasizes not to COMPRESS Trail Boss at any time.

Check w/ handloader at handloadermagazine.com and see what else they say.

Interestingly-Trail boss comes in the same black plastic 'jar' as other one pound Hodgdon powders. The 1# jars are only about eighty percent full. Nine ounces of TB nearly fills those plastic 'jars'. TB looks like little Cherrios.

Try it-you may like it.

 

[simcoe]

Right..isn't that what I just wrote? Guess I'm on my own with this. I'll just start with their 70% rule (which is over the max load shown in the reloading data they (hodgden) puts out) and work up towards the base of the bullet max to find the most accurate and consistant load.

 

[scott0116]

simcoe, I am interested in your findings on this one. I noticed the same contradictions you state, but didn't question it and have stuck to 5.8 grn. when using the 250 grn. bullet with tb.

 

[CowboyGunNut]

I won't advocate going over their max published load of 5.8 grains, but my chronograph showed this load only giving something like 600 fps (as I recall) - which is well below what they list. Unfortunately my chrony is no longer functional so I can't verify that velocity, but I do know recoil is much lower than loads using 8.5 to 9 grains Unique, so I suspect it's at least close.

At any rate, I'm also interested in your findings. I would love to have a smokeless powder that fills the case completely, yet is within SAAMI limits.

 

[simcoe]

Cowboy, I ran a 6gr. load over my chrony with my 4in Redhawk and got an avg. velocity of 766fps with an avg. deviation of 13fps. Thats pretty darn good in my book. I have loaded an fired 6.5gr. loads and was right at 800fps, grouping opened up a bit, but still pretty good. I just loaded up 6.9gr. and will shoot them tomorrow and see how they work. With the 6.5gr load the cases were still sooty so it's almost like the pressure wasn't even enough to expand the cases to fill the cyl. The fella on Gunblast wrote an article about loading 10gr. trailboss in a 454 for 1,000fps with very good accuracy and the smallest avg. deviation he'd ever seen. I'm hoping the 6.9gr. load works as well as the 6.0gr. load and be in the 850ish range. That for me would be perfect for what I'm looking for. Also thats what my Lee pro measure throws with the adjustable bar all the way open.. I read a post on another forum where a guy said his quickload program came up with 20,000+ psi with an 8gr. load. Maybe someone on here with that program will see this and chime in.

 

[scottrussell]

7.3 grains behind a 240 grain cast bullet in a 7.5 inch super red hawk is what seems to be the maximum load for my 44 with out compressing. This fills the case to the bottom of the bullet and is extremely accurate ( for my gun ) and very light recoil. I crono'd these once before but for some reason didn't write down the speed and don't recall exactly, but i do know they were below 1000 fps. Very fun to shoot and no recoil fatigue...my favorite plinkin load by far.

 

[noylj]

Why companies get headaches

You are looking at load development for cartridges where the working pressure is at least 30k psi and trying to use it for a cartridge that is set for 15-20k psi. You have load data showing actual pressure so you know that, unless you are intentionally loading for higher pressures in a gun that can safely handle the higher pressure, you can not increase the published load.
Now, if the 70% load is over the published max load, you need to bring that to their attention.
However, any reloader starting at the 70% load is responsible for determining the max load for themselves. The max load they have you determined is just the max load without compression and that is the max load in your gun that is safe, provided the pressure it generates in safe in your gun.
The point is that no compressed load can be considered safe.

 

[simcoe]

Because Hodgdon owns IMR I've been using that name, but "the reduced loads for pistol and rifle" with Trailboss Powder formula is actually under IMR. My apologys if thats confused anyone. Noylj, I understand what you're saying, but theres no "Ruger only" loads with Trailboss powder. They simply say, to find your "Reduced" loads using Trailboss, fill the case to the bottom of the bullet (any) weigh this amount, this is your maximum load. Multiply by 70% and this is your start load. Work your way up toward your maximum load looking for the most accurate. No Ruger only loads, no only for rifles with straight wall cases, no only if's of any kind, doesn't even say use at your own risk. Says by using this formula you won't get into any trouble. (?) ...BUT....isn't there always, then they come up with 5.8gr as a maximum load for 45 colt, when using THEIR formula thats just about a start load. Quite a conundrum....

 

[Lane]

Trail Boss

I've loaded Trail Boss with full case load= Not compressed:
in 30-06, .243, 17Rem, 204Ruger, 45-70, 41mag, 38, 44mag, 45Colt, 22Hornet,
With lead and jacketed bullets in all wieght ranges.

I get about half the speed of regular powder loads in all calibers. And Never any signs of pressure.

Trail Boss is my favorite plinking AND low recoil- up close hunting powder

Always give it some breathing room...Never compress and you'll be fine

 

[noylj]

Simcoe

As far as I can see, you are trying to confuse yourself.
As I said, if the 70% load is over their recommended max, you need to tell them.
Any load above the 70% level is YOUR responsibility to determine if pressure is proper for your gun. The max load, as I said, is simply the maximum safe load if the pressure is safe in your gun. The point to the max load is NOT TO EVER LOAD A COMPRESSED LOAD--don't even think about it. If your gun could handle 60k psi, they would still warn you not to even think about a compressed load. Max in this case is not in reference to your gun, it is in reference to any gun any where made by anyone.
You know what the max recommended load is from their data so you have no excuse to go over. If you didn't have that data, you are still responsible for any load over the 70% starting load.
I think I am making myself clear and I thought that IMR/Hodgdon was quite clear, but maybe not....

 

[simcoe]

No, I'm not confusing myself, IMR is doing that quite well by themselves. From their website: quote: (1) "Find where the base of the bullet to be loaded is located in the case and make a mark on the outside of the case at this location. Then fill the case to that mark with Trailboss, pour into scale pan and weigh. This is your maximum load. Pressures will be BELOW the MAXIMUM allowed for this cartridge and perfectly SAFE to use!" end quote.

 

[Lane]

No, I'm not confusing myself, IMR is doing that quite well by themselves. From their website: quote: (1) "Find where the base of the bullet to be loaded is located in the case and make a mark on the outside of the case at this location. Then fill the case to that mark with Trailboss, pour into scale pan and weigh. This is your maximum load. Pressures will be BELOW the MAXIMUM allowed for this cartridge and perfectly SAFE to use!" end quote.

In practice, this IS perfect. TB is so under-powered, grain for grain by wieght or by volume, it has less power than Black Powder!

Just Do Not Compress, and your loads will be Fine