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I was reading my Lyman 50th edition today looking for guidance on loading .223 Remington with the military SS109 62 grain bullets, WW748 powder, and AR primers like Federal Premium AR Match. So Lyman says they tested with both a Universal Receiver, 24", 1 in 12 twist, & a Colt AR15 w/20" barrel & a faster twist rate (IIRC. 1:8"?). Well, which one gives the performance listed? Not truely obvious from the book.

So, I called. The customer service rep quoted & I'm paraphrasing, "Twist rate has no meaningful effect on pressures or velocity."

Do we have anyone here with enough experience actually measuring pressures & velocities that can confirm or deny this statement? I am fully cognizant that every barrel will show differences, but expect barrels built to be used for laboratory testing to SAMMI standards would be fairly consistent, but experience might be elsewise.
Thank you in advance to any commentary given.
 

· The Shadow (Administrator)
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It is true, the difference(in pressure due to twist) for anything outside a technical discussion; is irrelevant.

The differences you will care about, are stability and potential BC. Give me a second and I'll be back to edit in some info for you.

Edit to add

Here, or even the stability calc on the Berger site, will let you know if you have a chance to stabilize; or lose BC.
You can look up that bullet length on the menu on the left. Remember it's the length that needs stabilized, NOT the weight.


Forgot to add, as far as the velocity performance, likely they used the 24" barrel. The shorter barrel, coupled with a gas port, will show the AR pattern a fair amount slower at the same pressure.
Cheers
 
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· The Shadow (Administrator)
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An unstable bullet, loses BC. Spin rates directly affect BC.
 

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This question comes up because people realize it takes some of the powder's energy to spin the bullet, and therefore, logically, it should take away from what is available to drive the bullet forward. Real guns don't work quite that simply because more resistance to the bullet going down the tube causes the powder to burn faster and reach higher peak pressure, thus actually speeding the bullet up. For example, when moly-coating bullets was a craze, newbies to the game thought their bullets would go faster without friction holding them back, but they typically lost 20 to 50 feet per second off their pet load's velocity because the powder had less resistance to build pressure against, and therefore burned and converted its chemical energy to bullet kinetic energy less efficiently.

That said, even that effect is not apparent with changes in bullet spin. I have made this calculation several times for different bullets in different calibers and the amount of energy in their spin (rotational kinetic energy) at the muzzle. If you subtract it from the bullet's muzzle energy and calculate how much that subtraction would lower velocity, the difference is typically on the order of just a tenth of a percent of the muzzle velocity. A difference that small is lost in shot-to-shot velocity variation. The normal chamber-to-chamber velocity difference you find in two guns with same-length, same-twist barrels on them is also greater than that, so comparing two guns with different rifling twists on them will just show the gun-to-gun difference and not tell you anything about the energy that went into spinning the bullet up.

But, calculate for yourself to satisfy your curiosity. The forward-moving kinetic energy (translational kinetic energy) of the bullet has the same units as rotational kinetic energy (foot-pounds, in the avoirdupois system), so finding the difference is just performing the subtraction of one from the other. However, they are calculated somewhat differently because the translational motion has the whole mass moving forward at the same velocity, while rotation has the speed at the surface greater than what is underneath. The solution requires finding a mass-equivalent characteristic for ratation called the axial mass moment of inertia, which you will find challenging to work out for some bullet shapes. My CAD software does it for me automatically when I draw a 3D shape, but I have to get internal feature dimensions like hollow points and jacket thicknesses right for that to be accurate. The better approach is to measure the axial moment of inertia with a hanging torsion pendulum. I've done that, too. It took me a while to get a serviceable instrument for this, though, as the suspension wire has to be good. I wound up buying some 0.0029" tungsten wire that works. The traditional fused quartz filament is something I didn't have as readily available.

If you try this, keep in mind that mass in the Avoirdupois measuring system has units of slugs, not pounds or grains, so you have to divide bullet weight in grains by 225,218 (225,000 is close enough for what we are doing here) to get slugs before plugging it into the Ekt=½mV² equation if you want to get foot-lbs for translational KE. The rotational KE equation is analogous at Ekr=½Iω². Follow the links for the equation details. The first link explains the concept of KE as well.

An example is made easier by using a cylindrical bullet, the double-ended wadcutter bullet (the axial moment of inertia of a cylinder is just ½mr²):

For a 38 DEWC weighing 148 grains and traveling at 750 fps from a gun with an 18.75-inch twist. I'll assume the radius, after allowing for rifling engraving, is the equivalent of about 0.177 inches, or 0.01475 feet.

Bullet mass = 148 grains / 225000 grains/slug = 0.000657 slug = m

Bullet axial moment of inertia = I = ½mr² = 0.5 × 0.000657 × (0.01475 ft)² = 0.0000000715 slug-ft²

With forward velocity, V, in ft/s and rifling pitch, T, in inches:
Bullet rotation speed, ω, in radians/second = 24πV/T = 24π × 750 / 18.75 = 3016 rad/s

Bullet translational kinetic energy = ½mV² = 0.5 × 0.00657 × 750² = 184.781 ft-lbs

Bullet rotational kinetic energy = ½Iω² = 0.5 × 0.0000000715 × 3016² = 0.325 ft-lbs

The difference in the two kinetic energies is:

184.781 - 0.325 = 184.456

The difference in velocity is proportional to the square root of the difference in energies:

184.156 / 184.781 = 0.998241

√0.998241 = 0.9912

0.99912 × 750 ft/s = 749.3 ft/s


So the rotational kinetic energy in the bullet is equal to a translational velocity of just 0.7 ft/s.

You'll have noticed some unjustifiable exctra decimal places above, but I felt they were useful to illustrate how small this is. In this case, 0.088% of velocity impact.
 

· The Shadow (Administrator)
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Grant,

There are two people who've responded to this thread, that actually measure pressure and share results with the forum. It doesn't increase pressures or velocities, outside of a technical discussion.
But if you've got some evidence showing otherwise, I'd love to see it.

Cheers
 
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When I first started reloading, I drove myself over the edge trying to comprehend twist rate to bullet weight/length/copper/lead. Then, after a few years of loading everything from 36 grn, to 69 grn, for my 223rem with a 1 in 9" twist, resulting in all the accuracy I required, I got over the initially frustration.

I came to the same conclusive results with my 1 in 10" twist 30-06 sprg., with bullet weights from 130 grn, to, 220 grn.

Sincerely, I leave this science to those at a higher pay scale than myself,... makes my life a lot less complicated.

But, I do like reading all the data and opinions!
 

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That's the guy who makes holsters, isn't it? 😁

The problem with trying to measure the difference is you can't move your chamber over to a barrel with a different twist rate. The only other solution I can think of is to get about 30 guns with each twist rate you want to check and measure the velocities and then compare the data sets with Student's T-test to see how much confidence you can have that any measured difference is real and not random.
 

· The Troll Whisperer (Moderator)
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Yeah, my apologies - that's what happens when the mind is going faster than the fingers!
 

· The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Yes! To the Great Beyond, alas. I've always wondered what Guinness was worried about.
 

· The Hog Whisperer (Administrator)
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Fascinating read re: "Student." I knew beer was important to civilization, but never really appreciated just how much ;)
 

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Cool! Thanks for the link, F2 (I hope that's isn't being too familiar). Wikipedia says the use of a pseudonym was a blanket policy for all Guinness employees who wished to publish but it doesn't say if that policy came about because of Gosset. It may have. Certainly, among its scientific employees, Gosset was the one who had the most impact on the world outside the realm of tasty brew.

As an aside, having been an active home brewer at one point in time, I can tell you hops are typically rated in bittering units now, based on the percent alpha-acid present in a particular harvest. The flavor nuances are a considered characteristic of the strain (as is the expected alpha acid range), and are not rated, but rather are characterized like snooty wine descriptions: "There are oaky overtones, married to citrus nuances layered over undercurrents of straw and stinky socks*" or whatever.

*The "perfume" of hops resins are often likened to eau de stinky socks, though not in the actual sales literature; that was just me stepping in.
 
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