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I'm using 36gr of imr3031 under a 305gr lfp in a .45/70 Marlin guide gun.  After firing a shell there's a bit of unburnt powder left in the barrel, is this condition dangerous and can you suggest anything to fix this condition?  If you are going to suggest filler please tell me which type I can use that is safe and that I will not have to leave my house/barn to find.   Thanks in advance
 

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SLANGLY,

I use 45 gr. of 3031 with a 300 gr. cast in my 45-70 guide gun. Burns fairly clean, lite recoil and groups about 2.5" at 100yds.

oldpete
 

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slangley: My practice loads include 38 grs 3031 with a 325 cast gas check and 42 grains of the same with a 415 cast gas check. I've also noted them to not burn cleanly. The lighter load left so much unburned that it frequently put dents into the next round chambered as a result of the granules laying in the bottom of the chamber. I tried poly fiber filler but settled on 16 garins of cream of wheat as it seemed to promote a bit cleaner burn. These loads were very accurate but I'm on the search for a cleaner practice load. Can't find 5744 here so am working with Reloader 7. It appears to be clean, accurate, but I'm getting considerably higher velocities (200fps)with it than the reloading manuals suggest I should. I e-mailed a query to Alliant regarding the powder lot # to see if they've had any feedback about it. Fortunately they were very moderate loads. I've been using 1/2 grain of poly fiber on it.
 

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bcstocker: Thanks for your reply. sorry to hear you are having the same difficulties as I.  One reason I chose imr3031 is that I can use the same load in my .308win.  I am pouring these from a powder scoop and settled for a measure I could use for both, if I cannot get the extra powder burnt I may have to switch to something else.  Do you perchance shoot both of these calibers and, if so, can you recommend another powder for me?  I must admit I am at a bit of a disadvantage in this discussion as I lent both of my manuals (Lyman47 & Speer13) for a time to a friend who was in much more need than I.
 

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My light small game loads with cast SWCs for my .350 Rem. Mag. with 3031 were doing the same. I perhaps overly conservatively was very reluctant to use filler in a bottlenecked case. My near fix, I still have very slight problems with unburnt powder, was to increase the load slightly and switch to a magnum primer -- a 90% fix. I now have reasonably clean burning .38 Spcl.+P equivalent loads that shot to point of aim at 25 yards.
 

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Gentlemen,

All smokeless powders have a minimum pressure at which they burn efficiently.  Your loads do not reach that level of pressure.

To demonstrate what I mean:  Take some smokeless powder and pour it on the ground.  Light it with a match.  It will burn slowly.  Do the same with black powder and it will burn very quickly.  The difference is that the smokeless requires pressure to burn efficiently, while the black does not.  It has the same characteristics at pressure or without.  If the smokeless did not change under pressure, you would not get the "crack" of the rifle, so to speak.

Raise those minimum loads and the unburned powder will go away.

dclark
 

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slangley,
As others have pointed out, you have a low pressure problem. I recently bought a #1 Ruger in 45/70. I bought a box of Remington Express cartridges with the 405gr. Jkt S.P. loading. Remington states that it is for all 45/70's in good condition. Obviously this is a "Trap-door" load. Upon firing there was A LOT of un-burned powder. Since then i have tried Reloader 7. I used 41 gr. with the Speer 400 gr. Soft Point bullet. Speer shows this as a starting load @ the "Trap-door" level. Alliant shows this as a maximum load. Go figure! Anyway for my first loading attempt, i was quite pleased. Groups were good,recoil mild and the load burned pretty clean.(outside temp was just under 20 deg. F.) I tried to find AA#5744 but like BCstocker, could not find any locally. I plan on doing more work with Reloader #7.
Scott in Vermont
 

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Scott , et al. Yes I know it's a low pressure problem , but that was what I wanted, lower velocities and lower pressures for practice. Both light 3031 loads were very accurate by the way. On the other hand I also shoot some near max loads (more than 50) of 3031. They also are quite dirty even using Fed 215's. The difference is the unburned is laying on the snow in front of the bench. You would never know if you were shooting on bare ground! The Reloader 7 loads are accurate. However I was seeking velocities in the low 1400's and used a low Springfield level load (also 38 grains and .6 gr. poly with the 415FNGC). However my velocities averaged 1642 using 2 different chrony's. Recoil felt like that velocity too so that is why I am querying Alliant. I have been using a Lyman manual(s) and have not seen an Alliant guide other than the info I pulled off their web site. The Re 7 loads burned very clean ignited by Fed 210's. I've just loaded a small batch of 325FNGC with 42 gr. Re7 to test. However it's snowing like stink this morning so don't know when I'll get to try them. I have not had satisfactory accuracy using Unique or a couple of the other IMR reduced power standbys. My experience so far with this cartridge indicates it likes a fair volume of powder in the case to perform best. Time will tell. besto.
 

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Try a "faster" powder like Reloder 7 or IMR 4198. I get good results with 350 grain jacketed bullets in my Ruger #1. In this gun 50 grains IMR 3031 with 405 grain WFNGC bullets is very accurate and leaves no unburned powder.
 

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Go to a faster powder. Red Dot in particular. Twelve grains to start and no more the 13. NO fillers with this recipe. You can also use this in a 150gr 308 win load. Thirteen grains no modification and no fillers. Use 10gr in a 30-30 and the 13gr Red Dot load can be used with common bullets in anything larger then the 308Win.
 

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BC - Yep, I read them! <!--emo&;)--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=';)'><!--endemo-->    ID

By the way, I had the opposite trouble with Re 15,
my velocities were 200 - 400 fps SLOWER than listed. A call to Alliant showed that they didn't have any other reports of a slow lot of Re 15, suggested I buy another can and try again!
 

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IDShooter. Interesting. I've seen minor variations from lot to lot of commercial powders, slightly greater again with surplus powders. None as great as what you and I are occasioning.  I don't mind particularly as I normally approach each different lot with test loads. I can't guess at the consequence if I had been loading at near max. according to the manuals I've consulted and simply jumped in. It certainly makes sense to buy single lots in the largest quantities you can maintain though. best regards.
 

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<!--QuoteBegin--BCstocker+April 07 2002,13:28--></span><table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><tr><td>Quote (BCstocker @ April 07 2002,13:28)</td></tr><tr><td id="QUOTE"><!--QuoteEBegin-->Does any one actually read the previous posts in these strings?[/quote]
bcstocker, why this question. When you use a powder of incorrect burning rate you get the problems you experienced. IMR 3031 is a very difficult powder to burn correctly in a 45-70 with light bullets. If it's the only one you wish to use, live with its problems. If you want better results listen to suggestions. I suggested a Red Dot load because there's no better way to get 12-1300fps in a 45-70. It develops pressure to burn cleanly. I guess at this point you're stating problems rather then groping for answers. IMO, IMR 3031 does not belong in a 45-70 with lighter then 400gr bullets. There are better powders for the job. Loading companies hand out loads for all there powders to cover their tails. That does not mean they are a good powder for the job. It shows you how to use them safely. For no more misunderstanding please state the purpose of your posts.
 

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RugerNo3 : Well I wasn't meaning to ruffle any feathers but in two of the posts I mentioned that I am using Re 7 plus some others (which include 4759, Unique, and H322, 4198 and a couple more yet that I would have to look at my notes to remember). I think I also mentioned that I was using both 325 and 415 grain bullets. If the burn was any cleaner with the heavy bullet I couldn't detect it. I also mentioned that I like loads that put a fair volume of powder in the case. This is just a personal preference for loading safety. There certainly does appear to be better powders available (many of which can't be purchased locally yet) than 3031. Nonetheless 3031 has been a traditional powder for use in the 45-70 for a long, long time.  I was not too surprised when lighter loads of 3031 did not burn very cleanly with either bullet. I was a little surprised after firing a lot (nearly 60 rounds) of near maximum  loads with the 415 grain bullet from a bench that looked over a brand new fresh snow fall to find a spray of unburned granules right out to the chronograph. So, I conclude that the poor burning characteristics of that powder are not limited to low pressure alone although it seems worse at low pressure. I like the results from the Re 7 very much except that I recorded about 250fps higher than anticipated with my load than Lyman did. Another poster at this site recorded just the opposite using Re 15 and I believe he said 200-400 fps slower than he anticipated from the loading data. He and I will just work with the lots we have. It convinces me to be very careful when switching from powder lot to powder lot and I mean beyond the usual reduction employed for testing. I picked up a container of a different lot of Re7 today and intend to use the same load with it (as it is quite reduced) and see if the results are the same or different. I believe you referred to a slower load than what I want for practice using Red Dot. It may be very effective but it falls in the category of load I don't care to use.
Apologies to all, it was written tongue in keyboard.
 

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BCStocker, gotcha. I realize sometimes we have to make do with what is available to us in the area. Re#7 is an excellent powder for the 45-70, but it's been said that it is now faster burning then it formerly was. I haven't purchased any for 3yrs so can't attest to it. I reload for a #3 Ruger 45-70 as well as a BP Rolling Block and have been reloading for over 35yrs. Magnum primers do wonders for load development. The new Benchrest primers are in the Magnum burning rate with supposedly better manufacturing tolerances.(Tongue in cheek) IMR 3031 is a lazy reloaders,IMO. I know a number of reloaders that use it in the 30-06 with 150 gr loadings. There are better powders but that's what they like and put up with its attributes. Red Dot is a bulky powder and a double charge is readily apparent in the 45-70 which is the only danger at that point plus it is good for upland loads in a 12ga shotgun. Glad to get to understand you concern.
 

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RugerNo3: Well, I like to shoot a lot and like to experiment a lot with loads. I've got several for both cast bullets now and a few for jacketed  that all perform very well at the velocities I choose to use for practice and some hunting  and then there are those that are used solely for big game hunting. It wasn't stated by me which may have confused the issue but my practice loads are in the moderate hunting range velocity rather than pure specialty target loads. Some, like the 3031 practice loads, were tested for accuracy and were actually quite outstanding. But the fact is they probably won't be used again because of the problems unless I can't find an alternate preferred powder. I've also abandoned using some powders altogether as they don't provide the accuracy I expect. I use Fed 215's for any hard to ignite, Fed 210's for most others, some WLR's. We have one dealer in town carrying powder. He frequently runs out of one kind, simply doesn't carry others at any time. At present he has no Re powders of any kind left in stock. Carries no Accurate Arms, no Vihtavouri , no Norma. It's about 175-200 miles to the next towns that have dealers with any significant assortments. They really aren't much different usually only stocking IMR, Hodgdon and W-W. When I travel I am checking every shop I come to hoping to find something I either want to use or try out. Would love to get some 5744 but can find no stock in Western Canada even though one firm does catalogue it. I guess I'm forming my own data base of loads based on need because you're never quite sure what you may have to use next and it's nice to have the groundwork laid. Powder is not cheap here 40-45 bucks a lb. plus 14% taxes, rarely get a chance for any surplus varieties and courier freight to bring powder any distance is a killer. Gun show prices are usually better for some brands but I came down with the flu when the Kamloops show was on and missed it. Alliant expressed no great surprise at the velocity variation. Thought maybe the filler may have boosted pressures. I've since tested the load without the filler (yesterday)and results were near identical although with a small sample accuracy appeared to deteriorate slightly.I think we've about chewed this bone to pieces now. As long as we're having fun then we're still living.
Best regards.
 

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BC- $40-$45 dollars a pound? Holy mackeral!! I got upset when our powder went from $13 to $15. Guess I should be thankful!! At those prices I think I'd start shooting some of those Red Dot loads. <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->
20 years ago if I recall correctly I got powder for $5-$8 dollars a pound. I remember buying an 8 lb can of DuPont 4831 for $56 not that long ago, now they are $115. I think the Transportation people are gouging us horribly!           IDShooter

Edit- What I really wanted to say when I got waylaid by powder prices was to comment on 5744. I have tried it and I really liked it - good accuracy and low velocity spreads. But if you don't like dirty burning, save your money. At the reduced pressures I was using it was quite dirty. Didn't bother me or the accuracy, but since this topic is about unburnt powder I thought I'd mention it. BTW it smelled great to me, unlike any other powder I've ever smelled!  ID



<!--EDIT|IDShooter|April 09 2002,09:01-->
 
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