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Unsupervised Range Training

4K views 22 replies 16 participants last post by  albertaguide85 
#1 ·
Our club is doing some upgrades at the property including fencing and signing 40 acres, surveillance and gating the entrance. We have arranged a contract with the Wisconsin DNR to make time available to the public to use our range. So we will have some money to spend and i'm not wanting to p*** it away. That said, I go to this range a lot and we always welcome the public because we know people need a safe place to shoot. Sometimes when I'm there I witness handling procedures that are not safe. As I said we are not putting a range officer there. I try to help but sometimes I just pack up and leave. My thoughts are could we place a TV screen with a safety DVD set to play whenever someone comes into the structure. It's roofed but no sidewalls. Any thoughts or recommendations on this before I bring it up to the membership.
 
#2 ·
My first suggestion to you is to make sure your liability insurance covers this. Second, every club I've ever belonged to had constant range and/or structure damage from non-members using the place. They also leave a lot of broken bottles, tin cams, busted clay birds (not my pet peeve but some members hate them), and other assorted things that spell out "Slobs have been here". I'd post hours of use allowed and make sure you had a volunteer from your club there during those hours. Believe me, I used to belong to several clubs in different states and they all had this problem. To be honest, some of our own members are guilty also. It's just that the "guests", invited or not, make a lot bigger mess. You're going to be in trouble even if one of these idiots shoots themselves....they'll sue you somehow. Check with your clubs attorney and your insurance. Getting advice on here is worth exactly what you pay for it. Good luck with your range improvements.
 
#3 ·
Unsupervised ='s dangerous pig sty

I'd bet it wouldn't take long to have a bullet hole in your tv screen. I would strongly recommend rethinking RO's being present during ALL hours open. It is the only way to keep rules enforced & many RO's may work for free, or some free membership/free brass type of deal. Money spent on survaillence will all be after the fact info. RO's can prevent things before they happen. 1 lawsuit could close the club, or worse.
 
#4 ·
mikekoch,

You got much good advice so far. As a past gun club president, may I make a few observations and then a few recommendations so your club does NOT "Reinvent the Wheel?" First, In your contract with the Wisconsin DNR for the public to use your range: What is the compensation to your club for public usage and will Wisconsin DNR advertise and post signage for LIMITED Public usage specifying the days and hours,, or is it unrestricted public access? Either set boundaries, or prepare to have your club ranges overused by the public to the anger of your club members! I have seen this "out reach to the public" BACKFIRE! Will DNR provide range officer supervision when the public is using your gun club ranges? The public is composed of considerate folks as well as outlaws. I would require DNR Officers, with powers of arrest, to monitor the public that may come to your range. Trust me, it will be needed on many occasions!

Rather than a TV screen and safety DVD, I suggest you charged a hourly range fee of $5, or more, for non-members to pay for one or two Range Safety Officers to closely monitor the public users of your ranges. Charge the same fee for any guest(s) a public shooter brings to his/her bench. Finally, by all means, inquire of your club insurance provider what is needed to open your ranges to the public in view of the DNR contract. Accepting a fee from DRN or the public may require more insurance premiums which your club should pass on to the public. Be sure to obtain WRITTEN confirmation of all discussions with your insurance carrier.

Hope this helps.

Webley
 
#5 · (Edited)
Get from the DNR some kind of agreement that a conservation officer will stop by periodically, or no public. Document w/ photos the damage being done as a means to get/keep/increase the COs participation.

No officers-no public, plus see what your insurance says, as already noted.

They wont do it around here.
 
#6 · (Edited)
mikekoch,

One more thing; I suggest your gun club set up continuous real time video coverage of the shooting benches/firing line to document range rules violations and bad range conduct. Here in PA, the Game Commission owns 256 tracts of Game Lands across the state totaling 1.5 million acres. Several Game Lands have firing ranges that formerly were open to the public for free. After littering, damage to targets and benches, the Game Commission requires Game Lands range users to possess a hunting or trapping license or they must purchase an annual range permit that costs the same as a resident hunting license.

Wisconsin DNR may wish to adopt a similar policy, if one is not in place for gun club ranges. Thus the $5 per hour range fee could be waived for persons with a hunting license. For the general public, the $5 per hour fee keeps the shooters moving along and then off the firing line. We found at my club the hourly fee for the public kept bench turnover at an acceptable level. Before the hourly fee, some shooters "homesteaded" for hours at a bench to the annoyance of club members. When the clock was ticking, the shooters moved along. I hope your club will benefit from my club's past experiences in this matter.

As for insurance coverage, the rules vary by state per state law. We found out there is a big premium cost difference between an "invitee" to a free club event compared to a fee-paying user of our ranges. Be very careful regarding liability.

Webley
 
#7 ·
You MUST have someone in the position of authority on site whenever your range is open especially to the public. Otherwise, the riff-raff will come in droves and make life miserable for shooters, cause property damage, litter, or worse. I like shooting on controlled ranges where ROs are present to enforce rules. They have the authority stop a lot of unsafe practices that endanger everyone. The last time I shot at an uncontrolled range, a group of young men came and from their demeanor I could tell they were trouble. No thoughts of safety, a lot of laughing and noise, a lot of rapid fire, holes in the target frames and littering. I approached the group and suggested politely that they refrain from pointing their guns at the other shooters. They gave me a glare like "Who the f*** are YOU" and said "Yeah, yeah" then went right back to what they were doing. It was time for me to leave as I was in no mood to carry this any further. I don't shoot at uncontrolled ranges anymore, it just isn't worth it.
 
#8 ·
Not only should you have an RSO present during public hours, but you should consider having all non-members sign a liability waiver. It will help keep insurance costs down and provide some protection in the event of an accident firearms related or otherwise.
 
#9 ·
Thanks for the opinions guys, all good. Our insurance Co. assured us we were covered. We think the good old days of letting every tom,dick and harry use it unsupervised may be over but not enough active members to police it. We are in the process of installing a gate for opening and closing during shooting hours, which is pretty much dawn to dusk. The county is mandating this after a neighbors complaint about stray bullets. We think this is unfounded but with governing agencies you are guilty until proven innocent. Don't know where this is going but the belly aching has been going on for a number of years from this individual, and we've bent over backwards to accommodate. shortened our trap to 9:00 from 10:00, cut way back on renting to the public for weddings and such so cars weren't driving past his house late. Thanks again. Mike
 
#10 ·
I don't give the public much credit for being safe and considerate shooters and it only takes ONE to spoil it all for the rest. That is why I opt for ranges with a rangemaster to control the shooting sessions, safety officers to enforce safety and posted rules and a range fee to cover the cost of expenses. Even then, an incident can still occur. IME, an unsupervised range is asking for trouble. A range without supervision is an accident waiting to happen and I wish this were not so.
 
#20 ·
There's also the other side of the coin, here. How many of us have had
to put up with coffee-saturated RSOs, and insane control-freak range rules.
One place I went to wouldn't let you shoot a rifle with the bayonet extended.
Forget about one handed,defensive, and weak hand shooting.

Maybe a little mess to clean up is the less evil alternative. But I have to agree
with the posters who opined that somebody will shoot up your safety lecture
equipment.
 
#11 ·
We don't have a Range Officer but do have a live-on caretaker. We are a private range that allows guests. We have had some issues (people "taking over" the range for personal use). We also share access with the local race-track during the summer (closing some portions of the range at times)
 
#12 · (Edited)
powers of arrest, my butt. Anyone trying to exercise such is highly likely to get his butt sued off, and could very easily end up in a fight, with guns or fists. Just dont allow public access. It's not worth it, and charge at least $100 per year for membership. That fee will go a long, long ways towards keeping riffraff off of the range. Empower any member to ask for club ID and picture ID, (or have an actual pic on the club ID)and to take pictures with their cell phone. Often, members will "loan out" their key, ID card, so pieces of it still get on club property. Anyone who can't/wont pay a quarter a day for range access is somebody you dont want on your range.
 
#13 ·
Last eve I was at the local unsupervised DNR range. Id been there about an hour and 2 couples arrived. I asked the ladies if the men let them shoot--Oh yea. I do nt believe they had ear protection between them, I noticed later.

I was shooting 22 BR UISBR target. Soon I had loaded a round, was looking thru the scope and somehow noticed some movement downrange to my rt. One of the ladies was going to check the target.

That pretty well ended my shooting session, about 1/2 of what I wanted to shoot.
 
#14 ·
I use a public range in the Ocala National Forest. There is no one "on duty," so everyone is responsible for range safety. When we go we always go in a group. Someone ALWAYS watches the line to make sure it stays safe when people are down range.

I've bumped heads with a few buttnuggetts on the firing line. I've offered to read the range rules, posted right by the path to the firing line, for people and informed them that they can take their finger and follow along as I read them. I also inform them that one call to LEO and they will be banned from the range and I'll collect a $200 reward for reporting them.

I start out politely but I loose all sense of humor when it comes to firearms safety. You show your *** at the range and we'll slap it for ya!
 
#15 ·
From what i've heard



200$ to make a report, or a report that leads to an arrest? I've heard from many who have been there and every one has run into the buttnuggets. Sounds like a person could make some good $. Having to leave 1 person with the guns while hanging targets, so they don't get stolen, don't sound too good. Advice for the OP, when it rains, don't stand under the bullet holes in the new roof. Those holes are one of the first things I look for at a new range & they appear even in ranges WITH RO's. STAY SAFE & lotsa luck.
 
#16 · (Edited)
mikekoch

Late to the game on this post.

I am a range officer at a county owned range in Wisconsin administered by a private club

All of the public ranges in our county are administered by a private club. The County only makes them available to the the public as long as we have a certified range officer on duty. Without this oversight the county would of shut all of the public ranges down.

As far a a security camera, we have one at the range we administer, the issue with a camera is it will only record an event or safety violation after it happens. Great for after the fact not so good for real time stopping the action from happening in the first place.

The county itself is responsible for the insurance for the public use of the range, our club provides insurance for the range officers and for all special events that the club sponsors.

Steel Challenge
Bowling Pin Shoots
3 Gun matches.

In addition the club sponsors a Scholastic Action Shooting team for the local middle school and high schools. Great program for our high school athletes. The Scholastic Action Shooting program also has insurance that covers the athletes, coaches and registered volunteers.

My point is nothing happens on the counties public range without direct supervision. This insures a positive reflection on the county and public ranges and some of the best public ranges in Wisconsin to stay operating.

Good luck
 
#17 ·
I've had similar problems, but not necessarily always at unsupervised ranges, but yes I can certainly relate to one's concerns regarding unsafe handling practices.

My BIL nearly blew my head off multiple times in a single day while deer hunting. Several of those close calls occurred due to him shooting over my head at deer that had been bumped up in front of us. At the end of that day we had stopped at an old abandoned stone cabin. We stopped there on the last leg of our long hike to take a break before walking the remainder of the way back to the vehicle. He was leaning against the opposite wall unloading his 8mm Mauser, the muzzle was point directly at me. If not for me being observant and, I simultaneously ducked out of the way of his muzzle at the very instant it discharged. My head would have been a blood stain on the wall if not for that. It was so close that I had small pieces of rock fragments embedded in the side of my head and face. At that point and considering the hunt was over, I grabbed my gear and walked home, which was about 4 or 5 miles. I was 16 yrs. old at the time and never hunted or shot firearms with him ever again.

But I've had quite a few very close calls. I was shooting at our local range a few years back, unsupervised range, myself and several other shooters had called a cease fire so we could walk down range to check and change targets. There was only one person at the line, we made it perfectly the clear that we were calling a cease fire. All of us had just started the 200 yards trek back when all of a sudden the guy up at the line started shooting his AR15. We all buried out faces in the dirt at the same time. Not yet realizing who was shooting I instinctively drew my sidearm, then the guy next to said, wait, wait, it's the guy at the line shooting. Talk about mad, we all yelled "hold your fire" "cease fire" multiple time, but he couldn't hear us because he had his ear plugs in. We ran the rest of the way up there, he was still shooting when we approached him. His idiotic reply was, come on, I'm not an idiot, I saw you guys, I wasn't shooting directly at you, what's the big deal, all while sweeping us with his muzzle. Are you kidding me, are there really morons like this at the ranges?

On another occasion while shooting at that same range a couple of trucks pulled up and started unloading their weapons and gear along with an ice chest full of beer. While it's not illegal to consume alcohol and shoot guns in our state, it is illegal to do so if you're posing a safety issue, such as sweeping people or handling them in some other fashion that poses a direct threat to others. It didn't take long for all of us to realize that these guys were already two sheets to the wind when they arrived. After looking down their muzzles twice, myself and another man approached them and said something. We were respectful but being this is a serious safety issue we were very direct. This was when they became belligerent, which was when I packed up and immediately left, enough is enough.

So yes, I'm a strong proponent regarding the necessity of range officers. But even with them I have experienced numerous problems at ranges, a lot of people just don't get it. So now days I often just drive out into the public lands and shoot where I know I'm the only one. I may not have the conveniences the ranges offer, but I also don't have to deal with a bunch of careless morons either.

SMOA
 
#18 ·
We had an unsupervised range the public could use for years. It belonged to the parish sheriffs department , but the public could shoot there on weekends.
All went well for decades , then for some reason , young people would do things like shoot holes in the roof , set the trash barrel on fire. After the coke machine and water fountain kept getting shot up....the sheriffs dept. closed it to the public. No more free safe range because of the ones who would rather target the roof , coke machine and water fountain.
For the life of me I can't figure out why people do these things , but the sad fact is they do and don't seem to give a rodents rear end about it.
I now shoot at a range that charges $15.00 to get in the door and they record your drivers liscense # and photo , but it does keep out the riff-raff.
Good Luck with the unsupervised public...I hope it works out.
Maybe prominent and hidden video surveillance cameras might keep down the destructives.
Gary
 
#22 ·
I haven't shot on a 'real' public range in more than thirty years so know what unsupervised slobs can do to a public area. Tannerite made it worse.

The local solution seems to be working well after about 8 years of experiment. The Hunter Safety classes go to one of these gravel pits and first clean up the range, then shoot on it. EVERY scrap of glass, too. I go by such a pit on the way to town and now see more (shot up) trash barrels and less old appliances and broken glass. All these 'ranges' are on the usual LDS work day clean-up schedule, too.

Old spud cellars are used as trash pits on many big farms and several times have hosted "bring your own wreck and blow it up" Tannerite festivals just before cover it up day. A friend of mine blew up six in one day. (40 lbs is about right for a 4 door sedan). :)
 
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