[Kragman71]

Hello,out there
Two years ago,I bought a used Wincheter '94 in 30/30 caliber. It had a cheap Bushnell scope but shot Great. I gota 3 shot,1 inch group,and several more around 1 1/2 inch. I also got a 100 Yd instant kill on a Whitetail.
I treated the little gun to a new Leupold 1-4 scope. I also got a new Williams offset mount.
Now,I got trouble. average horozontal dispersion is about 3/4 inch,average vertical is about 3 inches,at 50 yards.
I only single-load,and now I hold the fore end with my hand (over the front rest).
I stripped the gun and super cleaned and relieved some metal on the magazine to free it up. In the process,I sprung the upper muzzle band,so I cannot replace the screw. I think that this would be OK. Is that so?
I also replaced the suspect scope with a tried and true Weaver,to no avail.
Although I cannot see how,I wonder if the Williams mount is the culprit. Is there a test for that? other then replacing it?
It's been two years;sometimes the thing shoots good. I got another deer with it this past year,too.
Last week,I got a 4 shot diamond shaped group,with an ES of 5/8 inch at 50 yrds from sitting.
I would greatly appreciate ANY suggestions.
Thanks,
Frank

 

[arkypete]

A question.
What bore cleaner have you used in the barrel? Maybe even more to the point what sort of ammo are you shooting in this rifle.
I had a 25-06 that begain to string out it's preferred jacketed loadings. I cleaned it out with some strong bore cleaner, lots of ammonia, and sure nuff right back to nice tight groups.
My cast bullet guns only require a good swamping out every now and again.
Jim

 

[Kragman71]

Arkypete,
When I first got the gun,I very quickly developed a good load,using the Hornady 170 grain Interlock bullet with IMR 3031 powder. This is the load that gave me the groups under 1 1/2 inch and my first Whitetail at 100 yards.
I later developed a load with a 170 grain paper patched bullet and did get some groups under 2 inches and my second Whitetail.
Right now,I'm using the jacketed bullet load and variations(using different lube combos)of the good cast bullet load to get these huge vertical groups.
With this gun,I am a "Clean Freak" with the barrel.
I don't have a leading nor a copper problem,but I regularly use Barnes CR2 after using jacketed  and Shooters Choice Lead cleaner after using cast bullets. I also treat the bore with KGB2 conditioner.
I am trying to establish a consensus of where the first bullet from a clean,cold bullet will hit. This will allow me to hunt,at least.
Thanks for your interest,
Frank

 

[Alex Stanton1]

Kragman,

That sprung front barrel band sounds suspicious to me!  If it's not exerting the same, and uniform pressure on the barrel then it could easily cause your shot disbusement that you describe.  Too, that tension, or lack of it, could and most likely would change from one shot to the next being that the band is both sprung, and not affixed with the retaining screw.

I just recently ordered a replacement front band and screw for a pre-war M94 from Numrich Arms, and it didn't cost even ten bucks I don't think.  

This little piece might well be the culprit in your groups growing!

Just a thought!

God Bless,

Marshall

 

[Kragman71]

Alex Stanton,
Thanks. What are your thoughts concerning me squeezing the band with a PADDED adjustable wrench? I can then install the screw. Or maybe remove it and squeeze it in a Padded vise?
Frank

 

[Marshall Stanton]

Kragman,

Squeezing in padded vise grips might be an answer to getting the screw started, I don't know that I would recommend putting the front barrel band into a vise, as you can't tell how much to compress the band, and if you overdue a good thing..... well, off to the parts house for replacements!

I'm curious, now that I'm thinking about this barrel band issue.  Is the difficulty starting the screw because the band is sprung, or because of alignment difficulties with the screw going through the cut-away slot in the underside of the barrel, and then aligning properly with the threaded hole?  

If your magazine tube isn't properly positioned this can be a problem, and the issue won't necessarily be with the front barrel band, but with the positioning relationship between the magazine tube and the barrel, and the slots cut in them for the front barrel band screw to go through.

Just another something to check before putting the big squeeze in good gunmetal!  <!--emo&--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''><!--endemo-->

Let us know what you find!

God Bless,

Marshall

 

[IDShooter]

Kragman,
     Concerning the "order of events" so to speak, did the stringing start occuring before you altered the barrel band? We have two sets of variables here, one being the change of sighting equipment, the other being the barrel band alteration.
     If I read your original post correctly, the problem started with the optics change and the barrel band adjustment was an attempt to correct it. Is that correct? If so, I would go back to that scope mount as a likely culprit. I agree with Marshall that measures should be taken to get that barrel band back into a secured position, but I believe I would try a different mount. It seems to be the one variable that you have NOT changed to try and correct the stringing, yet it was one of the pieces of equipment put on that seems to have created the problem...      IDShooter

 

[Kragman71]

Thanks for your input,Folks.
Sorry for not being precise enough. The Problem started when I replaced the Bushnell Sportview scope and Kwik Site mount with the Leupold Vari X 2 and the Williams mount.
Everything I did came afterwood.
My original post was primarily about whether the mount COULD be responsible for the problem. I tightened and tugged nd tried to wiggle,but it seems to be solid.I have two other Williams side mounts,and I have faith in them.
However,you answered my questions;I will reinstall the upper band screw and replace the scope mount.
Stay tuned,
Frank

 

[William Iorg]

Kragman

I am late into this but I was wondering, which Williams mount do you have?
I like the SM94 but I am left handed and cannot use it.
The SM71 is made for several rifles. If you have the wrong length screws you will have trouble. You might call or E-mail Williams and get the length of the M-94 screws to compare with yours. Have you turned the bushing much for windage?

Try your library for a copy of the 1965 Gun Digest. If they dont have it ask for an interlibrary loan. They should be able to borrow it from another library. The article you want is "Lever Action Rifles" by C.H. Helbig and P.B. Cain. This is one of the best articles ever written on accurizing the M-94, M-336 and the 99 Savage.

Which bullet are you paper patching? I use the NEI #37 162 gr. bullet. What paper are you using? I have settled on 100% cotton bond, but any paper works well enough. My best paper patch loads are with IMR 4064, I cannot explain why. IMR 3031 sure works well for jacketed loads.
I lube the paper with Lee case sizing wax.
I cast the bullets soft and they will shoot with any jacketed bullet in the .30-30 and the .307.

Are you a .30-40 shooter?

 

[arkypete]

A number of years ago Paco Kelly wrote several articles on accurizing lever action rifles, in the Cast Bullet Associations news letter, The Fouling Shot.
If memory serves he also wrote about trouble shooting the lever actions, in the same Fouling Shot.
Jim

 

[Kragman71]

Thanks Folks,
William: I am using the Williams 94/36 mount.It uses the same screws as does the Kwik Site.if the scew is too long,it binds the breech block.
My paper patched bullet is custom made,and based on the Lyman #31141,and with pure tin,is 173 grains. I use 9#  onion skin paper.
Do I shoot the 30/40? You betcha!!
There are a lot of guns/cartridges that are pretty good for Woodland Whitetails,and some very good; but none are any better then the 30/40 Krag.
I am hunting now with the 30/30,only because i got a little cocky hunting with it for 50 years.
I will look up that '64 Gun Digest at the next Gunshow in May.
ArkyPete:Would those articles by Paco Kelly be on the sixgunner webite? If so,How could I access them.
I reworked my '94 based on an article on the website: www.flying lead.com
Right now,worthwhile activity is at a standstill.
I am swamped with housework. I thought it was smart to do carpenter work around the house;now I
am doing it ;Like it or Not.
I should have some news by next week,or two..
Frank