[DOK]

Well folks, got my "American Rifleman" magazine yesterday and the first article that caught my eye was an evaluation of six different rifle action types to determine "What's the Fastest". Noticing that the lever actions came in last place, even behind the single shot rifles, I expected to turn to the Beartooth site and review all the rebuttals!! Really wasn't sure what to expect, but didn't expect silent acceptance -- everyone must just be too stunned to type?

Dan

(Edited by DOK at 1:16 pm on Aug. 17, 2001)

 

[Alan]

I suppose a single shot bolt action could be faster than a lever action if a right handed shooter had to cycle the lever with his left hand while balancing on one leg with eyes closed and head tilted back :biggrin:  

 

[Contender]

I could see a single shot maybe if it had an ejector that threw the empty shell clear so you could stuff a new shell in there but I can't really believe the lever came in last after the single shot.

The lever and pump can be very fast in the hands of an experienced shooter.

I hunt with Contenders almost exclusively. I have a wrist strap that holds 2 followup rounds for quick access but have no allusions as to a single shot being a speed weapon.

I have to check that article. Thanks for the heads up.

Regards, Ray

 

[DOK]

Well, Ray and Alan, I may have not given quite sufficient
information. Only purused the article, but apparently the test included time to recycle the action "and" points for hitting the target. To my way of thinking, being last place in that kind of contest is even worse than just raw speed.

Please take a look at the article and see what you think as a lot of folks maybe influenced by the results -- at least the non-lever action folks will .

Dan

 

[Coldfingers]

(Scotty raises his eyebrows as his Marlin and Winchester sing a few bars of "Liar, Liar, Pants on Fire..." in the background)

 

[Snowman]

  hmmmmmmm,
I wonder if this means, someone will soon start a new class of single shot IPSC style competition.


  *NOT*

 

[mcassill]

I haven't even gotten my copy of the Rifleman yet, but I will definitely have to check this out.  Perhaps they had someone's blind, arthritic grandmother working the lever gun???
Good shooting
Mark

 

[DOK]

After reading the article in detail, I would respectfully suggest the title should be changed to "Which is the fastest action combined with the best accuracy when used by people shooting that action for the first time".  Minor dry firing was allowed, but no prior shooting or practice was allowed at all. Still the results were very interesting. While the lever actions were noticeably quicker reloaders than the single actions, the shooters accuracy was much, much worst, thus the final ranking of the single action ahead of the lever action.

Even with any weaknesses, the article does have interesting insights -- such as the quality of the trigger appeared to play an important part in the accuracy results -- big surprise! But with all that said, I'm still intrigued by the difficulty the shooters had in accurately shooting the lever actions in relationship to the other actions. A possible explanation comes from the author's suggestion that the actions that had the better potential for quickly recycling appeared to affect the shooters by influencing them to shoot more quickly -- quicker than appropriate for good accuracy results.

Anyway, interesting article!

Dan

 

[Coldfingers]

DOK,

I wonder if the results were in any way tainted by the fact that most Lever Guns have the somewhat awkward (to me at least) Buckhorn sights while most bolt guns have a fairly good set of sights already in place.

Just my random thought.

Scotty

 

[DOK]

Scotty,

Agreed, however all 12 rifles (2 ea. for 6 action types) had scopes, with any variable scope set at 6X or lower. The targets were "life size" deer targets placed 75 yards away -- really shouldn't have been a big problem, at least not to the extent it was, and again, why the lever did so poorly in comparison? The lever action's accuracy ranking was #8 and #11 -- with two actions tieing for 10th, this makes #11 last place.

Quote from article; " What the "averaged" results don't show is the sometimes substantial difference that shooter familiarity made with the same rifle.  For example, Shooter No. 1 had a time of 8.1 seconds with only one point for the first time out with the Marlin 336. The next time was nine seconds and a perfect score of nine points. Shooter No. 4 shaved 10 seconds off his score the second time with the Browning lever-action and added three points"

Again, why would the lever-action be more difficult for first time shooters than the other actions? As indicated, thought it was an interesting experiment.  One of the topics the authur touched on several times was the pressure on the shooters from it being a timed event. I would suspect the pressure to hurry a shot due to being timed isn't any greater than the pressure of trying to get a second shot off at a fleeing animal in a woodland setting --- or anywhere else for that matter.

Dan

 

[James Gates]

I agree with Dan...The title of the article should have been changed. The author's intent may have been good, but his method leaves a lot to be desired. He does mention, in passing, that the shooters on the autos may have been bias and were trying "spray and pray!" I also question his use of inexperienced shooters. The article should have been really two presentations. One showing how well new shooters could learn to use various action types and the other showing timing on repeat aimed shots by experienced shooters. I feel the semi-autos do have the faster recovey time for aimed shots (if all calibers more or less developed the same recoil). Pump and lever actions following second, with pumps maybe a slight edge since the trigger hand doesn't leave the stock. I've seen some fast bolt action boys at Camp Perry, but would have to rat them slower than punps or lever actions. Here again, I amtaking into consideration....what is the fastest recovery/cycle time for aimed shots! The reader should all that into consideration the hunting conditions that the rifles are used in....heavy timber/brush or open/range when deciding which is best for which. Really, it's all a little academic. For many years the bolt guns have gotten the press, overlooking the meat and potato lever guns?<!--emo&???--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/confused.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt='???'><!--endemo-->???
Best Regards to All, James

 

[Bill Lester]

I'm in agreement that the title is quite misleading. More shooters should've been utilized, one group of rank beginners and a second that shoots/hunts primarily with one action type or another. That way we see what a newbie can expect in speed and accuracy versus what an old bolt/lever/pump/auto crank can do with their pet action.

After reading this article I pulled-out a couple rifles and did a defacto test of my own. No shots fired, just dry snaps against a postage stamp on the wall I use for such things. (The real shooting tests with a PACT timer are upcoming. Stay tuned.) I'd say my times for two "shots" at the stamp with my Marlin Outfitter were about equal with my No. 4 Enfield. That is to say I only squeezed the second "shot" when the sights were really on target.

As I alluded to, I have several buddies who will be happy to aid me in my own speed test in the coming weeks. There will be a variety of rifles to choose from- military semi-autos, scoped bolt actions, levers, etc. Everything but a single shot. I'll keep you all posted.

 

[DOK]

Bill,

That's good news. I'll admit to being "bugged" about the shooter's lever-action problem in hitting the target in comparison to the other actions. The reloading time was competitive, they just couldn't hit what they were aiming at -- why more common to the lever-action?

Dan

Dan

(Edited by DOK at 11:45 am on Aug. 21, 2001)