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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Since I have been working with new recipes for slugs, both for smoothbores and rifled barrels, a question has come up in my private email. With the new rifled barrels and slug/bullets......is the firearm still a shotgun or a rifle on a shotgun action? This may sound silly, but as more states require shotguns for bie game (and you bet they will) the question becomes very important!
As far as I am concerned.....a firearm that has a rifled barrel and fires a single projectile is a rifle, no matter what type action it has. I only hope that the states, as they move toward shotguns for big game, do not define it as such.
Until someone has really spent some time testing some of the new developments in rifled barrel shotguns, they don't have a clue as to what these are capable of. If one was shown a .72 caliber RIFLE pushing an 1 1/8 oz bullet at 1500 ft per sec......most would say it was a REAL big gun gun! Those ballistics matched or exceded our famous Buff guns. So.........What do you think?
Best Regards, James
 

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Well, you asked what I think, so here goes.

I think this trend to rifle barrels on shotgun actions is gonna bite us in butt.

IL and CA at least are trying to ban any 50 cal rifles. IL is going several steps farther and trying to ban ALL guns with bores of 50 or larger. Muzzel loaders and shotguns.

So I believe that the antigunners will see this pump action rifled bore 72 cal monster as the biggest cop killer bullet ever to come down the pike.

Yep, I think it's gonna bit us.

Oh and I agree with you. It doesn't matter what frame or action a gun has, if the barrel is rifled, it's a rifle. Period.
 

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When is

:confused: As this will more than likely do be discussed, argued, cussed, and then resolved by those who have little to no knowledge about the subject but they "was in a movie about it" I will offer my best guess to the definition.

At the rate that the traditional lines are blurring and crossing over of traditional components as seen with shotgun primers into black powder, I would propose that the definition would probably have to be resolved by the type of propellant utilized. This is probably not the best solution, but it should help to further the discussion thus furthering my education.

Thank you folks
 

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As long as the barrel says gauge then it's a shotgun.
If you put caliber on the barrel then it's a rifle.
.................................................................Marko
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Rifled Barrels on shotguns.

I agree with all that's been said. Look at the Savage bolt shotgun. This is not to say that I don't like the rifled barrels on shotguns though! The Terminator slug/bullet I have designed has a crimp groove and can be loaded in a brass shotshell.
I think there is a place for rifled barrel shotguns as big game guns, but only hope it doesn't cause a problem in shotgun only states. I also think Marko has a good point with the barrels marked as a "gauge"
But also look at the trend.......muzzle loading rifles using smokeless powder?
Best Regards, James
 

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We'll have to stick with the ATF definitions of handgun, rifle, and shotgun for now. I agree that the lines are definitely blurred, but it is human nature to innovate. The regulations which only allow shotguns or handguns for hunting are really to blame for this, otherwise there is absolutely no market value in a .308 or .300 mag handgun! The market was artificially created, the manufacturers didn't force this on us.

I do not believe the smokeless will catch on in muzzleloaders. Everything I have read suggests that it performs no better than, and in some cases more poorly, than black powder or equivalent. This is with a consideration for accuracy, ease of loading, and velocity and not just high velocity. Sure if we want to just go by velocity then it's the greatest thing, but if that was truely important Winchester, Remington, Ruger, Browning, etc., would have been put out of business long ago by Weatherby. High velocity sells magazines but not as many guns as you would think. If anything the BP substitutes like 777 and Pyrodex Pellets will probably kill the smokeless muzzleloader.

As far as this causing grief for gun owners, well, I can assure you that there are politicians in CA and IL (and everywhere else) that want to ban ALL guns. They'll find another excuse if this one doesn't pan out, they always do.

Mr. Gates, you have some very innovative loads. Not too far behind the .458 Win Mag.... very impressive (sounds PAINFUL also!). Let us know your 'one shot stop' statistics on the big hogs in the swamps.....
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Rifled Shotgun Barrels

Mike and All....It was not my intention to start an arguement. I have some views on muzzleloadrers as my readers know.
What is very interesting is as I got into this slug thing deep, I discovered that the same arguement that a 45 bullet, with its larger diameter base, gave less pressure per velocity than a 44 diameter base. The very same thing applies to a bullet with a .727" base. We have been able to reach velocities of 1500'/" within the allowable pressure of a 12 gauge Terminator type load (11,500 psi)in 12 gauge. This is due to the large area of the base. After reading Frank Forrester's comments in 1838, I realized the potential of large Ball and Paradox guns of the period. What is amazing is the velocities of Ball guns, firing a hardened bore size ball. 1800 plus ft per sec was common with a 12 and 10 ga bore. What was also surprizing was the accuracy out at 100 yards. We have been able to match that with a .690" hard ball in a shotcup in 12 ga. This fired into water filled gallon jugs is impresive, to say the least! I think what I am trying to put over also is.......we should take a close look at what hunters used for very large game in the late 1800's and early 1900's. If we take out our brain, wash out the advertising BS of today, we may be pleased to see the results in test like we run on actual game situations. We have friends that kill over 100 deer and hogs a year on crop damage control. I rely on their finding more than a rag writers BS. Best Regards, James
 

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James - just need to add a little marketing!

How does the .700 Weatherby sound?!?!? Bet you could sell some with that name..............

Can't wait to hear how it works.
 

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James,
If it was a rifle it would be classified a destructive device if I'm not mistaken, as a result of the caliber. This sounds like an interesting product. Have you gotten a source for the brass casings yet? Would this work through a semi auto shotgun for large predator protection?
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Rifled Barrel Shotguns

Well.........I don't what it would be called, but it is with us now. As I said before take a look at the Savage boltgun with a rifled 12 ga. barrel. Think of it loaded with rounds made fron Alcan (Fiocchi) brass cases. The Terminator slug is .750" long with a crimp groove at .500" from the slug's base and .727" in diameter. We still have a couple 100 Alcan brass hulls stashed away. I do understand that Graf & Sons either have or plan to have brass cases.
I have never fired brass shotshells in autos, but the military made up #00 buckshot 12 ga loads in the War 1 & 2 for the Winchester Mod 97 and Mod 12 riot and trench gun.! I have fired them in pumpguns.
Our basic test gun is a Mossey 500 (scoped) with a Hastings rifled barrel.
But......autos do work with the slugs inside of plastic cases (rolled crimp)
Best Regards, James
 

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Hopefully, common sense will prevail - the whole purpose of "shotgun only" seasons is to limit range, to make hunting safer in populous areas. Idaho deals with this reasonably, I believe, in that there are no "shotgun only" areas, but "short range weapons."

Now, there may be some grey area or disagreement about what constitutes a short range weapon (here in Idaho a muzzleloader fits the definition), but ultimately that will be the deciding factor, I believe. If you take a shotgun and make a long-range weapon out of it, eventually it will be disallowed, as rightly it should be for safety's sake in crowded areas.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Interesting.....However I would like to point out that slugs/bullets from rifled barrels have no more range (say danger zone) than the present crop of slugs for smoothbores.......only better accuracy! Best Regards, James
 

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This has been an interesting topic thus far. I'm just hoping that as shotgun slug/gun development refines the weaponry, that the technological improvements don't make a wedge to divide and conquer the hunting ranks.

Don't forget what's happened amongst the ranks of muzzle-loading enthusiasts. There are the traditional shooters who take exception to inline rifles, those who decry the use of blackpowder substitutes, and regulations using all of these elements as well as the strides made utilizing plastic sabots in muzzle-loading weapons as dividing lines, which when implemented into game management plans and regulations, naturally create yet another division amongst the shooting public.

Much the same has happened in the bowhunting arena. High-tech archery tackle has quickly evolved into a fine, well defined science in it's own right, and as such has caused a rift in the archery fraternity between traditional bowmen and those using over-draws, optical sights, ultra-high let-off compound bows, bow levels and all other such technically advantageous archery tackle advancements.

It's bad enough that many states make hunters choose their weapon: archery, handgun, shotgun, rifle or muzzle-loader. Breaking those divisions down yet further in the case of advanced shotgun shell development would be a dis-service to the hunting ranks. However, we've already witnessed this effect on those arenas listed here, when innovative minds have applied ingenuity with perserverance to produce a better product and make it more efficient and effective.

Let us hope that this evolving development of ultra-accurate shotgun slug loads doesn't adversely effect the implementing of that ammo/guns in the future.

As both a hunting and shooting fraternity, we will only stand if we are unified, acting in solidarity one with another. The anti's capitolize on the divide and conquer tactics, that sadly are working amongst us today to the detriment of our sports.

Food for thought!

God Bless,

Marshall
 

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Stayed out of this conversation until now to see what others thought.

The one controlling factor, in my mind, is the fact you can still fire conventional shotgun shells in the rifled barrel (may not want to - or, don't know what the results would be) if desired. Therefore, it is still a "shotgun". Would that be akin to using snake loads in a handgun? Would that qualify the handgun into a hand shotgun? Remember the ban on the old Marble's Gamegetter? This can really muddle the issue, and as mentioned by Marshal, the last thing we need to do is further muddle things.

I'm for leaving the "shotgun" designation on firearms so identified, regardless of barrel type.

I'm further in favor of calling muzzleloaders "primitive" firearms, regardless of whether flintlock, cap and ball, traditional or inline.

The more definitive we try to classify the various types of firearms, the more "ammunition" we provide to those who try to divide and conquer us with rules and regulations.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
I only started this run to bring to light some developments being done in both rifled and smoothbore barrels. I don't post much here anymore, as my projects keep me busy, my overseas manuscripts, and some time back I agreed to moderate the reloading forum on Shotgun World (under the handle of Lex talio). It was not my intention in anyway to start an arguement, but try to be informative.
My Best Regards To All, James
 

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One question along these lines - anyone ever use the high-speed Hornady slugs, I believe they are marketed under the name "H2K" and with a claimed muzzle velocity of 2,000fps?

Curious if these work as advertised.
 

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MikeG said:
One question along these lines - anyone ever use the high-speed Hornady slugs, I believe they are marketed under the name "H2K" and with a claimed muzzle velocity of 2,000fps?

Curious if these work as advertised.
I know this is an old topic, but I have some of the Hornady 300gr SST's for my rifled barrel 535. Getting great accuracy at 50 yards just fooling around. I might scope it, and put it on a rest to see what it will do at 100 yards. The slug is basically the same bullet thats loaded into some .500 S&W mag ammo, just saboted for a shotgun. I was a little fooled by the shell only being 2-3/4", I expected light recoil.. They still give a pretty good thump.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Well Now!.....I see this one has come out of the dark past (three years ago!).......Many of the things Marshall spoke of has happened, in spades! But, I saw it happen in other shooting sports.
We now see the fellows with deep pockets (and maybe an expanded ego) going out and buying high tech guns that cot mega bucks!
There has been a push by the ammo companies on high tech sabot rounds also.
Can you beleive a group that pushes for a 200 yard slug gun?
Recently a small deadly war broke out on the Slug Section of Shotgun World over just this.......High Tech Big Buck shooters vs Punkin Rollers.
It's funny how a market evolves......Dixie Slugs sells to the people that hunt heavy and/or dangerous game within reasonable hunting distances. A nice little growing market of real nice hunters! We talk, we design, we hunt, and have a great deal of fun with these .73 cal rifle/shotguns!
Now that NEF has come out with a heavy barrel gun.....this have changed for the best for the everyday hunter that wants to play around with the ultra bores......they are plug ugly, but will knock the socks of some of the mega buck custom guns....to me it is as funny as it gets.
To match an evolving market, we have evolving products. So it is with Ole' Dixie. If I can get that web page updated!
We have never left out basic concept of hard cast heat treated slug/bullets.....and don't plan to.
So......there are two very different markets going now. The brush hunter that also like big slug/bullets and the high tech sabot shooters. I have never seen such a well defined different group.....attitudes also!
Needless to say....Ole' Dixie caters to the "Meat & Potato" hunters! After the sabot high tech crowds wither on the vine (self destruct?), there will be even more hunters playing with the re-introduction of the British Paradox type ammo. Just a small nice group of fellows! Come join us! Regards, James
 
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