[MAINER]

I bought my guide gun because I really like the feel of it for an open sighted, thick woods, deer gun. My question is do any of you have a good hand load recommendation  for this caliber and for deer? Maybe I'm wrong ( I usually am! ), but :
1. Will a 405 gr. FN trash a lot of meat?

2. Will a smaller HP like the factories load ( 300 gr. ) likewise spoil  too much meat?

3. Am I correct to be looking for a load that uses a FN bullet of about 300 grains, or am I overthinking this?

Thanks in advance.

 

[pourboy]

I am impressed with the performance of the RCBS 325 gr. cast bullet in the 45-70. No "excessive" meat loss, and the deer I shot with mine last year seemed quite impressed with it's performance too. Since this was a simple lung shot, and she only ran about 20 yards before stopping for a nap, I'm quite happy about the whole project. This was a medium powered load (save the train stoppers for grizzleys), doing about 1600 fps at the muzzle. As I recall, Beartooth can provide you with this bullet, already cast and ready to hunt, so you can try it before springing for a mould.

 

[MikeG]

How much meat is lost is definitely a factor of bullet expansion/fragmentation.  This is true no matter what cartridge you use.

A bullet that doesn't expand won't ruin much meat, or at least not as much meat.

And you don't need any expansion when the bullet starts out that big to begin with!

Whether the 405gr. FN's will work for you depends on how soft they are.  If they are made for 'standard' .45-70 velocities and you crank them up to 1800-1900 fps, then yeah, they're probably going to ruin some meat.

For a do-everything bullet in that gun, I'd just go with a 350-400gr cast and feel satisfied that I could thump anything on the continent.

I can assure you that with a meplat of .300" or greater a good cast bullet will do just fine.  If they work in my .44... and .45 Colt... and even the .357 mag on deer and hogs, the rifle will be a real thumper.

Hope this helps.

 

[slangley]

Hi there, I've put laser-cast's 300gr LFP(lead, flat point) through some thick things (tree stumps, bison, etc.) and haven't had a great measure of expansion.  They should effectively anchor (or at least mortally wound) a Whitetail, depending on your shot, without wasting meat.  My apologies to Beartooth, as I haven't had a chance to try their bullets yet, I don't mean to "brand trash" here but only offer the knowledge I have.

 

[slangley]

I might add that that bullet was sped by 36gr of IMR3031 in once-fired Remington brass with Federal Priming.  Please do not use this powder load at distance without some serious range work.  My shots were at close range (10yds) and the load may not be effective at longer range.

 

[Bill Lester]

Mainer,

While everyone so far has given sound advice on .45-70 loads, I'd like to add a vote for the moderately loaded 300-grain JHP. They're easy on the shoulder, easy to find, and usually show excellent accuracy. I wouldn't use them for shoulder shots since the meat damage would be severe, but for the typical lung or head-on shots you shouldn't lose too much venison. In general I do think a 300-grain JHP will anchor lighter game like whitetails faster than a nonexpanding cast load. This may be a concern for you, like me, where hunter density is a problem.

 

[MikeG]

Bill brings up a good point, which is if you need to anchor them right away, sometimes you have to accept some meat loss.  But that's better than losing the entire animal.

 

[Sunday Creek]

Another option is a 250 grain Barnes X-bullet behind 58 grains of H322. I prefer cast bullets myself, and the X-Bullet is a bit pricey, but it is the lightest bullet available. The over-the-counter Remington Express will also do all you need it to do.

 

[WHCKMSTR1]

Moderator's Note:
This post has been modified/edited due to inappropriate/dangerous load data.



<!--EDIT|MikeG|Feb. 17 2002,23:34-->

 

[WHCKMSTR1]

45/70, 53 gr of h322 (level 2 max.) 405 rem bulk. This load is so objectionable, Phil Hodgdon himself recommends it. Is the load objectionable or prefference to 405 rem. jsp bulk over beartooth cast?

 

[jackfish]

I don't know what is objectionable with a 45/70 Gov't load for the Marlin 1895 of a 405 grain Remington JSP over 53 grains of H322.  I've been shooting two grains more than that in my Marlin 1895 for 9 years.  The Hodgdon #27 recently supported my load as safe in the Marlin 1895 by publishing a 45-70 400 grain Speer load of 55 grains of H322.  Of course, one should always reduce a published maximum by at least 8% and work up in their own rifle.  When changing a component of any published load, like switching from the 400 grain Speer to the 405 grain Remington, one should always reduce the starting load by 8% and work up.

Could MikeG please elaborate on his position or reasoning for contending such a load is inappropriate?

 

[caster]

An answer to what bullet to use on white tail deer
 The answer is on page 21 in the March issue of THE AMERICAN RIFLEMAN.It is in the upper righthand corner...THE AR-50!!! It uses the 50 cal machine gun cartridge.  Think of it ! You could shoot one of these 90-110 lbs. monsters at 10 yards(!0 YDS?) with an incendiary round and instantly have a venison flavored -French fried doughnut!Do you think I am a bit too sarcastic?
    The biggest mule deer I've ever seen was shot in the fall of 1951 up Chalckcreek canyon in Utah. It was shot by one of the Staley "boys"(BOYS_they stood 6' 4"" and wieghed in at 195-200lbs and were about 17-18years old). I got to camp late at night the day that the deer was shot .The next morning we got on our horses and rode up to the site, about 4 or 5 miles .That buck was humongious! WE cut the neck off at the shoulders and cut the body in half at the kidneys and loaded our hosses
up and walked back to camp and those horses were pooped .I have no idea what it weighed. AND what was the caliber of the gun?A 25-35 mod 94 Winchester .One shot just back of the joint of the shoulder blade at abou 100 yards.It turned slightly and fell in heap

 
 tbc

 

[MikeG]

No, it was one of the other loads in Whkmstr1's post.... something with RE7 and a 300 grain bullet.  I looked it up in the Hodgdon #26 and it was way over max, even for the Marlin.

As he didn't seem to have any consideration for the rest of the people on this board, I couldn't see going to the trouble of commenting individually on each and every load.  Besides, we saw the 405/53gr H322 in about 30 or 40 other posts... it's pretty well burned into everyone's brain now.



<!--EDIT|MikeG|Feb. 18 2002,21:15-->

 

[WHCKMSTR1]

I never quoted a Re 7 load for 300 gr bullets. I Quoted a Re 7 load for 400/405 jsp's , it was 48 gr of Re 7 for level 2. I said , I believe Re 7 is better in the 45/70 for lighter bullet weights and h 322 was better for heavier bullets.
  Mike G. ... you got issues , man ? when you melting lead, get more ventilation, please.

 

[jackfish]

Well, now we are getting into murky territory.  Hodgdon #26 lists 45-70 Gov't loads for the Marlin 1895 rifles that usually don't exceed 28,000 CUP and none exceed 35,000 CUP.  Just because one source lists a maximum load does not mean it is the final word.  The safe operating pressure of the Marlin 1895 45-70 is 40,000 CUP.  There have been recent documents that are publishing loads to this level for the Marlin 1895.  I have found Marlin 1895 45-70 loads from authoratative sources listing 55 grains of RL 7 with a Remington 300 grain hollow point bullet (2200 fps in an 18.5" barrel) and 49 grains of RL 7 with a 405 grain Remington JSP bullet (1940 fps in an 18.5" barrel).  These loads use Winchester brass trimmed to 2.1", CCI 200 primers and a seating depth to a 2.55" COAL.  If anyone is considering developing such loads they must reduce these loads by 10% and work up in their rifle, watching for signs of excessive pressure and velocity.  If any component of these loads is changed they must be reduced by an additional 5% and then worked up watching for signs of excessive pressure and velocity.  I understand the moderators of this site are sensitive to the issue of reload data, but perhaps they should research the information presented in posts before they dismiss it out of hand because one source indicates a conflict.

 

[MikeG]

Jackfish,

Good note.  Thanks for your input.  Sound advice for working up loads.  No problem with that.

We are interested in hearing about safe and useful loads, whether jacketed or cast bullets, etc.  Brand is not an issue either - do a search on "Cast Performance" or "Oregon Trail" and you'll find much suggested load data, some of it posted by Marshall himself.

At the time that I deleted the post with load data, I had my Hodgdon #26 open in front of me.  One of the loads appeared to be several grains (not just one or two) over max.  It is entirely possible that I just mis-read the note, or my loading manual, or both.

As stated, patience wears thin when the moderators have to spend several hours a night deleting rude, obnoxious, and dangerous posts which also contained foul language and at least one reference to illegal drug use.  If the post I deleted did not contain dangerous load data, rest assured that several others from the same source did!  If the problems did not appear to be all that severe to you, it is probably because of all the time that Jack, Ray, Bill, Marshall, James, and myself spent trying to clean up the forum.

If you believe that myself or any other moderator got carried away with the editing, by all means, contact Marshall directly via the Messenger service or the webmaster email address, and let him know your concerns.

Again, we sincerely appreciate your input, and the moderators would like nothing better than to just be able to sit back and read posts, rather than police them.

 

[Jack Monteith]

Hi, Jackfish:
   I was the only moderator on line when that wildman hit the forum. After reading a couple of his posts I knew I had to check all of them, 35 and counting at that time. Consequently I wasted  most of Sunday evening and my expensive connect time because of him.  Please appreciate that our fuses were getting mighty short.

Bye
Jack

 

[jackfish]

Being new here I don't know all the history.  Your responses to me indicate you are straight shooters (no pun intended) and it appears that you guys run a clean ship.  Thanks much.

Now, who has used an ounce of lead in their 45-70 to take a whitetail.  I continue to experiment with loads for the 440 grain Cast Performance bullet and would like to know about your experience with the 440-450 grainers.

 

[Marshall Stanton]

Jackfish,

Welcome aboard!

I haven't used the 440g bullet from Cast Performance in the .45-70, so I can't comment on it's use, BUT, I have used our .460"-450g LFNGC bullet extensively in the Marilin1895 (old model, straight grip, pre-crossbolt, it won't feed in the newer guns.... sorry&#33<!--emo&--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''><!--endemo-->.  This bullet loaded in Winchester brass, WLRP, and 52.0g H335 devastates on both ends!  This load typically (from a lapped barrel) will shoot under MOA, and on white-tails generates golf-ball sized and larger wound channels even on complete penetration shots!  As of yet, I only have one report  from customers of a recovered .460"-450g LFNGC from game, a cape buffalo whacked at something over 80 yards, frontal/quartering shot, bullet broke the onside shoulder, the spine, the off hip-joint and lodged under the skin on the far side of the critter.

FWIW,

Marshall

 

[jackfish]

Marshall, I bought my 1895 in 1977 so information on the 450 grain is valuable, thanks!  What is the COAL for that load?  Is it kept to 2.55" or is there some other factor that prevents cycling through newer Marlins?