Shooters Forum banner

1 - 20 of 36 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
268 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hello from Scotland

Looking over this site and other big-bores sites it becomes apparent that many favour the .444 others swear by the good old .45-70, Some have both ! Others seem devoted to one or the other of these two big bore lever guns.There even seems to be a bit of rivalry between the two camps.

My question to all you devotees of big bore lever guns in either .444 or .45-70 is Why ?

Originally i was looking to get a .45-70 as it threw the largest chuck of lead and seemed to have a proven track record on game of all sizes.

Sadly living in Scotland we have a daft law that Deer must be shot with a Muzzle velocity of 2450 f.p.s and after a bit of digging the .45-70 seemed hard pressed to reach this crazy requirement, so my attentions turned to the .444 still chucking out a fair sized bullet but able to reach higher velocites with less stress.
I believe i made the right decision ? Time will tell my .444p "should" be hear in the next 14 days or so  it should'nt be too long till im bagging away on the range, i will let you know how i get on.
Once ive mucked about on the range and got the knack of this casting lark , i will have to try it on Deer.

So you know my reason for going for the .444 over the .45-70 , what was yours ??
Would love to know what made you decide ? experience ? good reveiws ? word of mouth ?

Regards ENGLANDER
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
251 Posts
You already nailed one reason;the 45/70 throws the biggest chunk of lead and that is an important factor.  There is also the nostalgia factor, of course, the 45/70 having been the standard Army round back in the days of the old West.  Combine that with the serious horsepower modern loads generate and seemed good enough reason for me.
Mark
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
668 Posts
Whatever the 444 Marlin can do the 45-70 Gov't can do harder.  The following assertions relate to these cartridges in Marlin lever guns.

Given equal sectional densities, the 45-70 Gov't can drive a bullet at least as fast as the 444 Marlin can, and the 45-70 Gov't will shoot at least as flat as the 444 Marlin.  Given bullets of equal weight the 45-70 Gov't can drive a bullet significantly faster than the 444 Marlin.  Given bullets of equal weight driven at the same speed the 45-70 Gov't will generally have more power than the 444 Marlin due to a larger frontal area, but will lose any advantage out range due to a poorer BC.  If bullets of equal weight OR equal sectional density are driven to their potential in each cartridge the 45-70 Gov't will be more powerful than the 444 Marlin within practical hunting ranges.

Given the above I still believe with well placed shots with proper loads, the elk, moose, bison, hog, deer, grizz or gnat's *** isn't going to know the difference when hit with either.

Given that you bought the 444P with its 18.5" barrel you still might have a problem achieving the 2450 fps with jacketed bullets over 240 grains.  But the 240 grain Hornady XTP would probably be dynamite on small deer.  The 240 grain Remington JSP is an excellent bullet, similar in construction to the Remington 458" 405 grain.  Well lubed cast bullets 300 grains and under should get you there as well.

I bought my Marlin 1895 in 1977 after reading the 1973 Gun Digest celebrating the 100th anniversary of the 45-70 Gov't.  A guy I worked for had a 444 which he praised up and down and I just had to buy the ol' workhorse instead of the young upstart.  Glad I did.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
123 Posts
Ya, what Jackfish said.

I own a couple of .45-70s; Ruger No1 and a Winchester 1886.  Both are fun, but they are different from each other.  Both, however, are significantly more powerful than the .444.  The problem you are attempting to address is the law that requires a specified velocity.  ( That certainly show a lack of knowledge on the part of the legislative body members on firearms.)  It would be easier to reach that velocity with the .45-70 with light bullets, ie. 300 gr hard cast bullets, than from the .444.  The .444 would be using pistol bullets that are very light jacketed and may fail on deer sized animals.  The hard cast .45s would do better on that size animal.

dclark
 

·
Beartooth Regular
Joined
·
5,218 Posts
Concerning power and such of the 45/70 and 444 begs the question, how much power do you need?  Both of these rifles are powerful enough for anything on this continent or any other continent, except for largest animals in Africa and maybe they can handle that.  Lots of guides up here use both the 45/70 and 444 for back up guns on the largest carnivores on earth.  I don't think a whitetailed deer or elk will ever know the difference.  Sure is fun to discuss though.  The 45/70 is deeply rooted in the North American shooting psyche and that's got a lot of pull.  I don't really think an animal is ever going to know the difference provided you use the right bullets in each rifle and not try to ask either rifle to do something it isn't meant for.  Both are excellent rounds chambered in excellent guns.  You might ask whckmstr.  I bet he's got an opinion.

No offense intended.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
378 Posts
Seams you made you choice, and a good one in my opinion. The 444 is as good as a 45-70. Yes, the 45-70 shoots bigger and heaver bullets. Less recoil in the 444 though and a deer would not know the difference if it was hit by either. <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
41 Posts
Several reasons on my end; the "Guide" gun Marlin put out, the ability to do just about anything with the cartridge, the availability of components, ease of reloading, and "thump" when you hit something well.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,931 Posts
Hmmmm
I love questions like this. It's like going to therapy and not having to pay the shrink.
I got swept up in the 45-70 frenzy of a 25 years ago when somebody imported a boat load of the Siamese Mausers. Some of the more idiotic provisions of the 1968 gun control act were still in effect and military actions for currently produced ammo could not be imported. Thanks Mr. Remington and Mr. Winchester.
Nobody made ammo for the Siamese rifle but it was no big deal to convert them into something useful, 45-70, 444, maybe the 348.
The Marlins of that era seemed to me to be gritty actions, pitiful wood, they didn't have much of a finish to them. Marlin only had the 444 at that time they had not produced the 45-70, as yet. Plus the bullet selection for the 444 was pretty meager, both cast and jacketed.
A lot of the magazine articles extolled the virtues of the 45-70 in one of the converted bolt actions, how accurate, how powerful this cartridge was in a bolt gun. It would knock down trees, powder boulders and seek out and kill deer, or any creature you happened to be thinking of when the trigger was pulled.
I've never looked back, the 45-70 is my babe, the old bolt gun still can shoot better then I can aim it. The new Winchester 1886 looks great, shoots even better, and provides an awful of fun working up all the different bullet, powder combinations, with what I have and what I don't have. I'll not live long enough to finish my explorations of this caliber.
My 45-70 bolt gun has been with me through two wives, several girl friends, a bucket full of meaningful over....... Well anyway. Women come and go, good rifles are hard to find and should be held on to.
Jim
Jim
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
554 Posts
When at the range with full loads and a carbine, you say, "holy s%*#" a little louder with the 45-70.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
339 Posts
I beg to differ on several of the above posts.

is the 45-70 MORE POWERFUL then the 444,
let me think on it!...........................No!

does the 45-70 have a bigger bullet .....yes

This info is form this site:
444
[email protected] fpe
[email protected] fpe
[email protected] fpe


45-70
300gr Jacketed @2325fps.....3602fpe
(thats all that is listed, no cast )
405grBT @2020fps.....3670fpe

Given this PLEASE tell me why you think the 45-70 in a lever gun is more powerful. Now some of you have read in a respectful Terminal ballistic report where a Buffalo bullet round, a 444Marlin 335gr Hard Cast I think went 39" in their test media and the most a 45-70 did was 32" in the same test media.

 When I bought my 444Marlin they did not have a 1895 45-70 yet!  Now I like the 45-70 as well as anyone but! don't try and tell me how inferior the 444 marlin is, if anything the rifle maker and ammo makers are inferior at bring out the best in the 444 Marlin.....................Marko
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
668 Posts
Well, Starrbow I'll tell you why and I don't have to think about it.  You have presented apples and oranges.  Certainly cast bullets in the 444 will out perform the 45-70 with jacketed bullets.  A cast bullet can achieve greater velocities than a jacketed due to less bearing surface and lube.  Unfortunately, the wonderful people at Beartooth bullets have not spent the enormous amount of time on developing cast loads for the 45-70 as they have for the 444.  If they had they would have found exactly what I have claimed.  Given equal sectional densities the 45-70 can drive a bullet at least as fast as the 444 can.  Since, a 45 caliber bullet with the same sectional density as a .429" bullet weighs more, if it is going at least as fast it will have more energy.  In addition, you are comparing some rather hot 444 loads out of a 22" barrel with reasonable 45-70 loads out of an 18.5" barrel.

I am not trying to tell anyone anything.  Just stating fact.  I am not saying that in performance the 444 will not kill as well as the 45-70 (I said no game animal would be able to tell the difference), just stating the simple physical truth that the 45-70 is more powerful than the 444.  Heavier bullet of similar construction, same velocity, larger frontal area, more powerful.

As much as anyone would like to wish the 444 to be more powerful than the 45-70, physics will not allow it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
268 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Hello from Scotland

Starrbow.............."that there's fighten talk ! " as far as the .45-70 puritans are concerned !

Yes the .45-70 has "history" yes it chucks a huge chuck of lead , BUT the .444's not only powerful ,accurate , it's even got a darn " Sexy " name !

But to be serious when you look at the ballistics available for both calibres ,  they only reach there full potential when hand loaded with cast bullets, a caper im just starting to dabble in.

In time i "may" get me a .45-70 cow boy, i like that straight grip and long barrel.......................
But i still think my .444p with is dinky little barrel and mighty stopping power will make one #### of a woodland stalking rifle !

Regards ENGLANDER
 

·
Beartooth Regular
Joined
·
5,218 Posts
No deer that has ever walked would know the difference of 100-200 ft/lbs of energy when you are throwing a 44 or 45 caliber slug and still in the 3000 ft/lb range.  It's academic.  For all practical purposes, they may as well be the same thing.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
378 Posts
They are both great rounds, so close it is not funny. But let the 45-70 guys say there's is bigger and better. This is a no win battle with them. I for one will not dispute this any longer. I will shoot my 444's and enjoy them. After my first 444 I sold I bought  another 444S to replace it. Then I bought another 444P.  I had a choice of a 45-70 or a 450 Marlin I got neither of them. The 45-70 mongers have turned me off for good of ever getting one. I do not want to turn into a small mineded, go through life with blinders on person.  <!--emo&:D--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':D'><!--endemo-->
           Can you say 444 !!!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
339 Posts
Englander,
              I only do this to agrivate Jackfish he's got three buzzwords that trip his trigger
450marlin-457wwm-444marlin but you gota love him!
I agree with what he says on the 45-70 though.

I do have a Cowboy in 45-70 and think it's the cats meow the only thing wrong with it is the plastic butt pad can add to the discomfort of higher end loads. When you start pushing the 405grainers over 2000fps you will feel this rock you.....now about that 444 I have been working up some 300gr GC
around 2400fps the metplate on these are.380
talk about powdering cinder blocks....

Also keep this in mind, the jacket on a 405 Remington Bullet is the same thickness as a 240gr
sp loaded in the Remington 444 load ....Now so much for the 444 shoots a PISTOL BULLET thing
so many people harp on.....you got to admit that marshalls 280gr going over 2500fps is something
you can't ignore...2 Tons of energy, can a 45-70 do that?.........if not, maybe a 450 can!
or a 457WWM?....................................Marko
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
339 Posts
OK 444 Fans heres the scoop the info used is @
http://ulfhere.freeyellow.com/ballistics/wounding.html#deform

Testing was done in the range of  444Marlin to a 500 A Square..Big Bores

The Top Two Are:

Buffalo Bore 444 335gr LBT FN 2078fps  36"+
444 315gr RCBS Cast SWC 2041fps 32"

45-70
300gr Barnes Original FN 1992fps 30"
405gr Rem 1103fps 28"
415gr LBT LFN 1850fps  23"


PHYSICS says a Bumblebee can't fly!  now you can add that a 444 can't be more powerful then a 45-70...........................................Marko

Some things just aren't simple!
 
1 - 20 of 36 Posts
Top