[Hrachya H.]

Hello

Recently I came up with several wildcat cartridge ideas, which I posted on Varminter.com forum.

Not to repeat the same posts here I'll put the links so you can take a look at these concepts.

Wildcat - 6mm-17WSM - The Rimfire Forum - The Varminter Forums

Wildcat - .22-17WSM - The Rimfire Forum - The Varminter Forums

Wildcat - .22-458 SOCOM - Guns, Loads, Optics and Gear for Varmint Hunting - The Varminter Forums

I would like to ask your (ShootersForum members') opinion on these wildcats. Thank you !

 

[Davers]

I always thought that if Winchester wanted to introduce a new rimfire cartridge; they would have been well advised producing a .25 WSM. This load would use a 50 grain .251" bullet in either 50 grain solid point or FMJ, for a nondestructive small game hunting load. Then one in a hollow point form for varmints. This would be a great deal more useful and less destructive load than a .17 caliber, which is too destructive for small game.

 

[Hrachya H.]

And what do you think about that wildcat idea?

 

[chevwilliam]

Hello

Recently I came up with several wildcat cartridge ideas, which I posted on Varminter.com forum.

Not to repeat the same posts here I'll put the links so you can take a look at these concepts.

Wildcat - 6mm-17WSM - The Rimfire Forum - The Varminter Forums

Wildcat - .22-17WSM - The Rimfire Forum - The Varminter Forums

Wildcat - .22-458 SOCOM - Guns, Loads, Optics and Gear for Varmint Hunting - The Varminter Forums

I would like to ask your (ShootersForum members') opinion on these wildcats. Thank you !

The 6mm and .22 Varmint ideas are somewhat intriguing but EVERY case is a multiple-operation activity for ONE USE only. Personally I would like to see Someone, perhaps Olin or whoever owns the Rights to Winchester Ammo, make two cartridges: First an improved reintroduction fo the .25 Stevens/.25-10-67 RF round. applying all the knowledge derived from making improved .22LR ammo, and second, a "Magnum" .25 based upon the .25 Stevens with a longer case length, perhaps 1.250" instead of the Stevens 1..125" Case length using a 65 grain HP bullet and a heavier Solid point Spire point bullet.

These would make some sense as capable of removing somewhat larger bodied predators and Varmints also.

I always thought that if Winchester wanted to introduce a new rimfire cartridge; they would have been well advised producing a .25 WSM. This load would use a 50 grain .251" bullet in either 50 grain solid point or FMJ, for a nondestructive small game hunting load. Then one in a hollow point form for varmints. This would be a great deal more useful and less destructive load than a .17 caliber, which is too destructive for small game.

Why limit the .251" diameter bullet to 50 grains or lighter, the same as a .25ACP, when the .25 Stevens Long RF cartridge used a 67 Grain solid point bullet very usefully. I would rather see some 70 grain spire point bullets loaded in a Long RF case as that would hold Velocity longer out of the Barrel and get some added long range accuracy out of the combination.

Just my Two Cents.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

PS: the .25ACP is a CF equivalent to the .25 Stevens Short Rf or equivalent to a ".25-05-50". The .25ACP does hold 5 grains of Black Powder, I have tried it. Chev. William

 

[Hrachya H.]

@chevwilliam

I understand your point.

 

[chevwilliam]

Hello

Recently I came up with several wildcat cartridge ideas, which I posted on Varminter.com forum.

Not to repeat the same posts here I'll put the links so you can take a look at these concepts.

Wildcat - 6mm-17WSM - The Rimfire Forum - The Varminter Forums

Wildcat - .22-17WSM - The Rimfire Forum - The Varminter Forums

Wildcat - .22-458 SOCOM - Guns, Loads, Optics and Gear for Varmint Hunting - The Varminter Forums

I would like to ask your (ShootersForum members') opinion on these wildcats. Thank you !

I looked at your write up of the .22-458SOCOM and I think there are a few things to also consider.

AR platform Rifles seem to change Uppers as an assembly rather than just a Barrel.
Again a .257" diameter seems like a better choice for a long secant ogive Spire point Bullet as shown.
A Boat Tail might be considered as an improvement for terminal range ballistic performance and Accuracy improvements.
If I remember correctly Development of the.30-03 and .30-06 cartridges found a Boat tail and at least a 6 Caliber Secant ogive radius improved long rang performance in addition to the 178Grain bullet weight.
A .257" bullet would necessarily be lighter than 178 grains just due to Scale Effects (weight drops by the Cube of the Scale Ratio)
Example : .257/.308=.834+ .834**3=.580 178x.580=103 which is reasonably close to 100 grains typical of .257 bullets.
There is still going to be Recoil and Muzzle blast/flash to consider, which is increase das barrel length decreases.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

 

[carpooler]

Hrachya H. I picked up a collector cartridge called the 32 Stevens Extra Long. It has a heel crimped bullet, weighing a little over a hundred grains. Its drawn case looks like pure copper, and its capacity is 20 grs. of Black Powder. The S&W long 32 r.f., and the 32 Colt Short C.F. will both fit into this longer cartridge's chamber. With the best modern brass drawing, I believe this case, made to the specs of the 22 WRFM, could duplicate the 32 N.A.A. when that center fire is used in a pistol length barrel. The best R.F. cases top out at about 21.500 C.U.P. So it can only equal something like a 32 H.& R magnum C.F. Rim Fire priming seems to be the stumbling block. Its a special mix, which includes ground glass particles, and its been in short supply.

What I find interesting is that this 32 Stevens Extra Long will still manage the exact same performance as it had one hundred and thirty years ago, when stoked up with black powder, under a greased lead bullet. This case, in center fire, can and is modified to use an inside lubed, cast lead bullet of 30 caliber, by BBertram Bullets in Australia. They call it their 300 Sherwood. You can also think of it as a 25-20 S.S. case blown straight out. So there have to be some 300 Sherwood Rook Rifles lurking out there, somewhere. The Australian 310 Cadet is a different customer, entirely.

 

[Hrachya H.]

@chevwilliam

Perhaps conventional (milspec) AR15 upper and bolt won't even be able to handle it , but there are dedicated .458SOCOM and WSSM uppers out there ...so maybe on of these must be a starting point :

Dtech Custom AR-15 WSSM Upper Recievers - D-Tech - Custom AR-15 Upper Receivers

24\" WSSM .243 Upper Conversion Unit"

To be honest, the ogive is best I could do with my MS Paint magic skills )

I just had long range varmint hunting in my mind, so I went as small as I thought reasonable with caliber. Well, to me necking it down to .172 cal could be ridiculous. I wanted something in .223WSSM and .220Swift category, but still fitting AR mags and with .473 rim to be also relatively easier chambered in standard bolt actions. I agree that other calibers could also fill a niche in long range shooting/hunting world (.243; .257; .264 ...). And yes, this kind of cartridges are well known barrel eaters

 

[Hrachya H.]

@carpooler

That is very interesting, sir!

I am glad to meet so many knowledgable folks over here!

 

[Davers]

Why limit the .251" diameter bullet to 50 grains or lighter, the same as a .25ACP, when the .25 Stevens Long RF cartridge used a 67 Grain solid point bullet very usefully. I would rather see some 70 grain spire point bullets loaded in a Long RF case as that would hold Velocity longer out of the Barrel and get some added long range accuracy out of the combination.

Just my Two Cents.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

PS: the .25ACP is a CF equivalent to the .25 Stevens Short Rf or equivalent to a ".25-05-50". The .25ACP does hold 5 grains of Black Powder, I have tried it. Chev. William

I am certain a .257" Caliber based on a necked-up .17 WSM would use a heavier bullet, something like a 60 grain or heavier maybe a 75 grain bullet, but the velocity would be lower. However, I thought a .251" bullet would be better suited for a cartridge this size. Just guessing, but a 50 grain bullet in this sized case, would produce better velocity, like maybe 2,000 to 2,100 FPS, than if using a heavier bullet (60 grain +) of .257" diameter.

 

[broom_jm]

I would not be interested in any wildcat cartridge based on a rimfire case. I'm not going through case forming chores for one shot, so none of the rounds based on the 17 WSM make sense to me. I would be much more interested in the 17 Hornet, and derivations thereof.

The 458 SOCOM necked down to various calibers makes sense, but getting it all the way down to 22 w/o problems would likely be challenging. I'd be tempted by a 458 SOCOM necked to shoot a .358" bullet. Sort of a 357 Maximum, but something that would run in an AR.

 

[Davers]

I would not be interested in any wildcat cartridge based on a rimfire case. I'm not going through case forming chores for one shot, so none of the rounds based on the 17 WSM make sense to me. I would be much more interested in the 17 Hornet, and derivations thereof.

The 458 SOCOM necked down to various calibers makes sense, but getting it all the way down to 22 w/o problems would likely be challenging. I'd be tempted by a 458 SOCOM necked to shoot a .358" bullet. Sort of a 357 Maximum, but something that would run in an AR.

Jason, I also wouldn't want to try to "Wildcat" a rimfire. It would have been nice to see Winchester produce another cartridge, using the same case as the .17 WSM in a .25 caliber. I think one that is .25 Cal. would be a great deal more useful than a .17 Caliber one.

 

[Hrachya H.]

@broom_jm

I agree ... wildcatting rimfires sound a little bit crazy. It would be much easier for one of major manufacturers to offer such cartridges. I think it will be easy to adapt .17WWSM machinery to make something similar to these wildcats.

I wanted something like a .223WSSM, still fitting AR mags and with .473 rim to be easier to chamber in standard bolt actions.

 

[Hrachya H.]

Gentlemen

I have a couple of more cartridge concepts in my mind. I'll put them together and once I post them, I'll put the links in this very thread.

 

[BAGTIC]

I am certain a .257" Caliber based on a necked-up .17 WSM would use a heavier bullet, something like a 60 grain or heavier maybe a 75 grain bullet, but the velocity would be lower. However, I thought a .251" bullet would be better suited for a cartridge this size. Just guessing, but a 50 grain bullet in this sized case, would produce better velocity, like maybe 2,000 to 2,100 FPS, than if using a heavier bullet (60 grain +) of .257" diameter.

I believe Remington already did that with the .267 Rimfire.

 

[Davers]

I believe Remington already did that with the .267 Rimfire.

I know about the .267 Rimfire in which Remington was going to bring out as an update to the .25 Stevens Long. They dropped the project back during WW-2, and never resumed it after that war. Too bad as it would have been a great deal better than the .25 Stevens Long.

The .25 WSM (or .251 WSM) would be a bit more powerful than the .267 Rem. Rimfire, with what we have today to produce it.

 

[Hrachya H.]

Some interesting reading about short magnum cartridges:

Olympic Arms K8 Magnum Targetmatch | Shooting Illustrated

.223 WSSM

223 WSSM vs the 22-250 Rem. - Browning Article

Short Magnums

Cartridge Deathwatch: Winchester Super Short Magnums - RifleShooter

 

[carpooler]

Where is this thread going?

Is this thread about smallish rim fire conversions, or is it about super short magnums? Why not start over and split these topics up into two different threads?

I'm sure that this forum will support your divergent threads on these topics, but let's not muddy the waters by conjoining pipsqueak rimfires with Super Magnums, in a single thread. For instance, while the 243 WSSM is basically a shortened version of the 243 Win., while the 300 RCM is a shortened version of the 30 Gibbs wildcat. IMO, this discussion needs its own thread.

The ram set parent cases for the O.P.'s tiny tots, come in several power levels, and I bet that the lower pressure ones would be amenable to use for making wildcat rimfires. FWIW, there is a lot smaller compression of the priming cake in a R.F. case, vs. a center fire's primer. Plus, I've seen displays of these ram sets going up to about 28 calibers.

The larger diameter 32 R.F. cases use a .375 Rim diameter, but Sierra Bullets' Techs shot down my idea of buying their 375 bullet jackets to use for working them up as R.F. cases. These Sierra bullet jackets are drawn to be extra thick, down near their bases. To get an idea of this, why don't you saw some fired ram set cases in half, length wise, and then mic their wall thicknesses?

IIRC, Mitatoyo Corp. sells 3/32nds and 1/4 inch rubber holders, and polished steel balls to turn outside mic's into ersatz ball micrometers. Using smaller steel shot from water fowl shotgun cartridges would seem to work in this instance as well. The little rubber retainer fits over the mic's stem, holding the ball, in place, and keeping it centered. You then only have to allow for the diameter of the ball in your calculations, as their rubber holder doesn't get in between the ball and the end of the stem.

 

[Hrachya H.]

Is this thread about smallish rim fire conversions, or is it about super short magnums? Why not start over and split these topics up into two different threads?

I'm sure that this forum will support your divergent threads on these topics, but let's not muddy the waters by conjoining pipsqueak rimfires with Super Magnums, in a single thread. For instance, while the 243 WSSM is basically a shortened version of the 243 Win., while the 300 RCM is a shortened version of the 30 Gibbs wildcat. IMO, this discussion needs its own thread.

The ram set parent cases for the O.P.'s tiny tots, come in several power levels, and I bet that the lower pressure ones would be amenable to use for making wildcat rimfires. FWIW, there is a lot smaller compression of the priming cake in a R.F. case, vs. a center fire's primer. Plus, I've seen displays of these ram sets going up to about 28 calibers.

The larger diameter 32 R.F. cases use a .375 Rim diameter, but Sierra Bullets' Techs shot down my idea of buying their 375 bullet jackets to use for working them up as R.F. cases. These Sierra bullet jackets are drawn to be extra thick, down near their bases. To get an idea of this, why don't you saw some fired ram set cases in half, length wise, and then mic their wall thicknesses?

IIRC, Mitatoyo Corp. sells 3/32nds and 1/4 inch rubber holders, and polished steel balls to turn outside mic's into ersatz ball micrometers. Using smaller steel shot from water fowl shotgun cartridges would seem to work in this instance as well. The little rubber retainer fits over the mic's stem, holding the ball, in place, and keeping it centered. You then only have to allow for the diameter of the ball in your calculations, as their rubber holder doesn't get in between the ball and the end of the stem.

First I thought to put all my ideas in one thread, but yes, you are right ... now I see it is a little confusing. I'll definitely post my next ideas as a separate thread.

 

[chevwilliam]

I own an L.S. Starrett Company micrometer with a changeable gauge pin anvil so measurein gcase walls can be easier..

Best Regards,
Chev. William