[MikeG]

I think that you all forgot one real versatile option for the 12 ga SxS - chamber inserts.

There is a pretty good article in the current Handloader by Ross Seyfried on some inserts, both rifle and shotgun.   That got me thinking....

It would be extremely simple for anyone with a lathe to make a .22 rimfire insert for a shotgun!  Use an old piece of .22 barrel, it will have to be fairly large in diameter so that the bore can be offset (so the firing pin will hit the rim).  Or.... a small barrel, with an eccentric sleeve.  Sleeve could be made of aluminum, the barrel insert walls can be fairly thin at .22 pressures, to save weight.

External dimensions aren't as critical as you'd suspect, get the rim the right size, then the 'muzzle' end of the sleeve small enough to fit in a typical barrel, with a pretty good sized O-ring to center it up.  So it could be made to work in any chamber length from 2" on up.

Only need a few inches of .22 barrel, although 6" or so would work pretty good I think.

Don't even fool with an extractor, the nearest stick will do, or the tip of your knife blade.  A little slow to load but don't go after Mr. Bear with one and you'll be fine.

I may just have to knock one out myself, to see if it can be done!

James, great thread, I do think that the SxS 12 ga is a good idea but if you can combine that with .22 rimfire, you'd be all set.

 

[Paul Nichols]

Gotta go with original recommendation with one slight variation.  I would leave the right bbl. straight cylinder.  Woul  probably go with a mod screw in on the other side.  Good Thread

Paul in Omaha

 

[FA18CUB]

You know this topic may mean I have to go buy a couple new guns! That Savage/Stevens 311 and the new Win M-70 Classic Compact in .308. I was even looking at the Gibbs Rifle Co. .45-70 Bolt Gun.

 

[alyeska338]

I've got an elderly Stevens 5100 (the one with the plastic - not synthetic- stocks on it).  That little gun sure shoots nice and points well, but sounds something strange when shot.  I've been meaning to reblue and restock (with real wood) that rascal for years, but something always comes up and just never get around to it.  It's a 16 gauge sxs with mod/full and double triggers.  Ain't nothing fancy, but it sure does perform.  Not that I'll be shooting slugs out of it at all, though.

 

[Fireplug]

The virtues of the .22 for a secondary "wilderness gun" are beyond dispute, but this topic was about the one and only one gun you would carry. Now that someone else has opened the door for long gun hand gun pairs I will share my rule on these for any time ( if legally allowable ) that I am beyond sight of "civilisation": big gun & little gun. If I am out with a smallbore rifle or less than 12 ga. shotgun, I wear a .44 or .45 handgun. If the rifle is powerful or the shotgun is 12 ga. I wear a .22 handgun.

Back to the one "wilderness gun" concept, I think that weight of gun and ammo is the key factor since the two most likely modes of transport to or in any true wilderness are aircraft and on foot. I think that as a practicle matter the weight of tools plus the vulnerability of powder and primers to adverse storage conditions limits us to the ammo we carry. I suggested the lever and singleshot carbines due to their light weight, compactness, and availability in suitable cartridges.  FA18CUB rightly points out the increased durability of bolt actions, but this leaves a very short list of suitable candidates. The "wilderness gun" bolt action would need to be compact, light, durable, and powerful, but adaptable to reduced loads for birds and small game -- takedown would be nice but not mandatory. These requirements dictate a short action, short barrel, laminate or composite stock rifle in a potent medium or large bore cartridge. Only two factory rifles meeting these needs come to mind, both now discontinued I believe, Reminton's 600/660 in .350 or the Steyr Scout .376. Custom rifles of course can be had any way your can afford them. I did not say I was unhappy with my .350 for this role, but this seems an exceptable reason ( excuse ) for another rifle.

 

[Marshall Stanton]

As rightly stated, the "wilderness gun" should be approached with both bulk and weight of ammo considered.  As I've said before, the smoothbore is the best logical choice, and with the addition of a .22LR cartridge converter, an outstanding combination.  However, this may fly in the face of conventional wisdom, but for 80% of my smoothbore needs, I prefer the 20 ga.!  Other than waterfowl hunting, meaning all upland game birds, small game, etc., I prefer the .20 ga.  It is lighter, smaller proportioned, points and swings faster and has more compact and lighter weight ammo than its bigger cousin the 12 ga.  Yes, there are some amazingly effective 20 ga slug loads, multi-ball loads and all the benefits and attributes of possible projectiles listed earlier in this thread, but with the added benefit of making both powder, and shot go further while doing the same job.

In my book, "the twenty is plenty" to quote an article on the subject from some many years ago!

Just a thought to throw into the frey!

God Bless,

Marshall

 

[FA18CUB]

Just a quick update - for those who prefer a bolt gun as a wilderness tool. Savage makes the "scout" and 10fm (same gun without the rail and detachable mag.). Gibbs rifle company has several different suitable rifles. Ruger makes 2 different campacts. Winchester has the Classic compact and several youth models.  Remington has the model Seven.  There are quite a few of these types of rifles to choose from. You just need to know what you are looking for.

 

[MikeG]

Well, if we throw the 20 into the fray, isn't there a combination over/under using the 20 ga shotgun with some sort of a .22 cal centerfire rifle barrel?  I forget the exact model... a friend has one and I think the rifle barrel is a .222.  Savage 24?

Get a cartridge adapter for the .222 (to .22 rimfire of course), then you've got 3 very versatile ammo selections.

 

[FA18CUB]

I had one of those over under 20G/.22s. My dad wouldn't let me take it when I grew up and moved out! Must be something he wasn't telling me about that gun!

 

[FA18CUB]

Of course thanks to James Gates I just spent half an hour at GunsAmerica.com emailing a bunch of M-311 owners about their 12G and 16G guns for sale! Thanks James, my wife will love that! <!--emo&--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=''><!--endemo-->

 

[FA18CUB]

James-are the barrels on these guns steel shot capable? And can a new set of barrels be purchased if needed?

 

[James Gates]

The 311 series is OK with steel, but if you have tubes put, find someome who can put the Remington long tubes in (and get the steel shot tubes). If not go with one of the better known and don't forget to pick up the "rifled" tube, as it does give slugs a better range.
Weight being to question....when I thought up this run, I felt one would be "holed up" somewhere and not "trekking". Marshall's idea of a 20 ga. works if the same custom features are used. I have a .570" round ball load for 20 ga, that is quite mean.
And Mike G.....The germans, between the wars, sent an interesting rifle liner into the States. Most were set up for 12 ga. and were .38-55. What was neat about them was the method of installation. The back end was made to fit the shotshell chamber rim and the front end was threaded.The first nut to go one was tapered to fit the shotgun's muzzle and the second nut was pulled up as a lock. Both were knurled and was easy to set up with hand pressure. With the folding rear sight I mentioned, one of the two, could be set for the liner.
This has been an outstanding run! We tend to get wrapped up in the techo side of loading, etc at times and a run like this let's us be "creative"
My great-great uncle was a Capt.in the 1st Florida (1905) and brought a shotgun made from 3/4" pipe (with a chamber) that slide inside another pipe with a cap and nail. He took it off a Moro that didn't need it anymore (Uncle Harry carried a pair of Colt 45LC with 7 1/2" barrels). The Moro had killed on of Uncle Harry's men with the thing. It just goes to show that if things get real bad, we can "devise" Another interesting story about smoothbores....At the battle of Breed's Hill (it wasn't at Bunker Hill) the Americans ran out of lead and had use pewter for musket balls...now you know why the orders were not to fire until one could see the whites of their eyes. It is recorded that a blacksmith was using horse shoe nails...early non-toxic shot? say what? The best anti-people device I ever saw was kegs of railroad spikes with C4, fused, lit, and rolled down the hill to the Wogs! Wonderful disply of Make-do!
Best Regards, James



<!--EDIT|James Gates|Mar. 30 2002,13:33-->

 

[MikeG]

Horseshoe nails in a muzzleloader sounds pretty 'toxic' to me!

 

[Bill Lester]

As a true survival gun, James' reworked Savage/Stevens 311 really couldn't be beat. With the rifled tube in one barrel you now have the Yankee {sorry James!} equivalent of an old British colonial Cape Gun. But for several thousand dollars less!

One thing that should be said in terms of absolute reliability under an adverse survival situation is make certain the SxS you buy has double triggers. A single selectable trigger would not be a good thing if Murphy comes to call. With the double trigger guns, even if one firing mechanism goes down you have a backup.

As far as weight and bulk of 12 gauge ammo goes, I wouldn't worry a moment. That's because this is a survival gun, not a combat weapon intended to fight off the Commie hordes. I routinely carry upwards of a a dozen shells while grouse hunting my Pennsylvania hills. Up and down, up, up, up, then down some more through thickets a Viet Cong would have trouble in. Doesn't prove to be a problem. A dozen various shotshells would take a person a long way in a true survival situation.



<!--EDIT|Bill Lester|Mar. 31 2002,09:13-->

 

[James Gates]

Friends All....Awhile ago a friend brought over a SxS that he is fixing up, as per my recipe, for a river boat gun. It is on of Stoeger's "Coach Guns" in 12 gauge. It has 20" barrels (IC&M), matte finish, and English striaght stock. It weighs in at 6.5 pounds. It takes both the 2 3/4" and 3" shells and retails around $350.00. Oh yes, double triggers and coil springs. At 20", the barrel walls are thick enough for tube installation (need to be at min .84") Stoeger also has a Plain Jane blue, but checkered. at $310.00.
I think it has real potential! (It's also available in 20 ga, but weight is the same??)
Best Regards, James

 

[Registered]

Howdy, MR. GATES,  and the rest of you Pilgrams out there, This be the GRIZZZ,  I see that my question to MR. Gates, here some time ago, about the MIGHTY 12 GAUGE, being able to do it all, has started a forest fire. Good article, James, The Wilderness Gun. I read, that every one has their own ideas on the subject, Well, that's what makes it interesting, K.. I. S. S.  Keep it simple stupid, when it comes to the wilderness and surivial, To add my spit to the puddle, make mine a 12ga. pumpgun, 18 inch barrel smooth bore cylinder bore w/ 3 inch chamber, preferbly a MOSSBERG. A simple reliable accurate gun to keep you alive in the nasiest of places. With 50 rounds of assorted 12ga. ammo mainly, slugs and no 6 shot. Before I shut up, REMEBER, PILGRAMS. 95% of suriving anything, is in the head between your ears,    WATCH YOUR TOP KNOT AND KEEP YER POWDER DRY         GRIZZZ