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Discussion Starter #1
Over in the Accuratereloading site they are having a discussion aboutthe 45-70 and it's inadiquacies. I know that the 45-70 is not an express train as far as power, etc. goes, but neither is it a wimp.
I would think that if the game to be hunted was limited to Cape Buffalo down that the hot loaded hard lead bullets would adiquate.
Jim
 

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Well well, I guess if you don't have double rifle to hunt you can't go. Hey lets have a rifle match,levers versus doubles. There won't be caliber limitation just the targets that weigh a lot. Maybe some smart guy or girl could figure out a big heavy steel target  that would serve as a power factor. Kinda like pepper poppers set a little forward so the 38 stupid and 9mm wont knock them over. I have'nt tried to shoot a cape buffalo yet and when I go I'll be using a 505 gibbs and a lever for everything else. I'm an American and NOTHING is more AMERICAN than a lever action rifle. Screw those double rifles and crank on. I don't know about some of the people on accuratereloading, they seem to lack field experience, just look what the 45/70 has already done in the game fields around the world and then stand on some loads and figure what it will do with modern powders and bullets and bullet design. A 400 grain LBT leaving the muzzle around 1900 fps is not going to penetrate and wreck everything along its path? I suppose the factory 405 loads would be a poor choice for buffalo but the American bison was killed off mostly with 500 grain lead at 1200fps. Take your 45/70 to Africa and kill everything you want.
 

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Jim,

If you get the opportunity to go to Africa, take your favorite Winchester .45-70 and be happy. If you use the best bullets, you can equal or exceed the performance of many rounds that were used successfully for decades against all manner of Africa game. Look at some of the ballistics that wiped out almost all big game in some parts of the Dark Continent:
                           
.450/.400 Nitro Express    .40 cal./400 grains @ 2100 fps
.404 Jeffery                       .40 cal./400 grains @ 2150 fps
.500/.450 Nitro Express    .45 cal./480 grains @ 2175 fps
.500/.450 Magnum BPE     .45 cal./365 grains @ 1875 fps
.450 Nitro Express 3.25"   .45 cal./480 grains @ 2150 fps
.476 Nitro Express             .48 cal./520 grains @ 2100 fps

Use the best bullets available that are appropriate to the game and you'll have no trouble. Head shots on jumbo would require heavy jacketed FMJ's, but buffalo can be taken shoulder-to-shoulder with hard cast slugs. For lion and everything else I'd use a 300 or 350-grain softnose, probably Hawks.

Don't ever sell the ole' .45 Government short! Or for that matter its grandson the 444.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
My Winchester will go with me once I get the money put together.
Those did re-inspire me to think about a 416 of some type. I want to use a heck of a hard slug, cast! I like the idea of making my own bullet or finding a really good commercial stump kicker, in 416.
What I'm asking is would the 416 Taylor do the job or should I find a cartridge case that holds more powder?
I open to suggestions and free advice.
Jim
 

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arkeypete, what about the 416Beartooth in a Marlin? It's listed in the wildcat cartridges category. James Gates and Marshall designed it. I personally know of one PH in the RSA that is using a Marlin 45-70. The last I emailed him, he was getting his loads worked up. Lion no problem, but he had nothing for bigger game. It's a whole nuther ballgame over there for bullets and powder.

(Edited by RugerNo3 at 6:14 am on May 15, 2001)
 

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Jim,

I think many hunters going to Africa take too much horsepower. If you exclude elephant, which most will because of the tremendous costs involved, then you really don't need monster bores. Did you know that the .338 Win. Mag. has become one of the most popular buffalo rounds? Many PH's and sportsmen on repeat hunts find it drops them quicker than the .375 H&H! Sounds something like how many advocate the .270 over the .30-06. In any case, if you want to build a .416 go right ahead. But is it needed? Absolutely not.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks everybody.
That 1886 is looking better and better. I've got it at the gunsmith getting it drilled and tapped for the tang site. Once I get it back, I'll get busy working up a bunch of those 445 grain Lyman's.
I've got 40 or 50 pounds of babbit metal that should be just right for punching holes in big critters, should the occasion arise.
This alloy of babbit makes a pretty bullet, cold silver with reddish reflections and the stuff never seems to tarnish and when you hit an ingot of it with another ingot or hammer, it will ring like a bell.
In the 375 Whelen and the Saeco mold this alloy punched a hole in a piece of 1/4 inch cold rolled steel at 100 meters.
Jim
 

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Just don't forget your old buddy Bill when you get back. A hunk of buffalo hide would make an awfully nice holster...

:wink:
 

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The ones calling the .45-70 feeble are probably the same folks who run out to buy the latest greatest .300 ultrasuperdupermag after the latest gun-rag comes out.

They want a 400 yard rifle but cant hit a milk jug at 100 shooting offhand.

(Edited by Leadslinger at 9:55 am on July 15, 2001)
 

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Leadslinger,

You may find my post "Understanding,"found in the General Discussion section, somewhat pertinent to this topic.
 

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Bill,

I couldn't find your thread but I mellowed my post a few degrees. Is that OK? Not enough coffee yet <!--emo&:)--><img src="http://beartoothbullets.com/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif" border="0" valign="absmiddle" alt=':)'><!--endemo-->

When a 400 + grain bullet penetrates clean through a buffalo what more do these people want? Does it have to wear a jacket or go 3000 fps?

Dead is dead.

take care
 

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I had e-mailed several different  people, about hunting in Africa with   a lever  action rifle.  I think and known  that a lever action  rifle in 50 Alaskan, could  and  would handle anything  in  Africa.  All anyone has to do is to look at the facts, in a 50 Alaskan  a person can get a 525 gr. bullet   goingf 2000 fps.  There is nothing that this would not stop, not to mention the fact  this makes a half inch hole without expansion.  I hear a lot about 4570, which is a great round.  The 50 Alaskan is even better, but seems to be ignored by anybody I wouldn't hesitate to  hunt anything   in Africa with the 50 Alaskan., thank you,  Kevin
 

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I had e-mailed several different  people, about hunting in Africa with   a lever  action rifle.  I think and known  that a lever action  rifle in 50 Alaskan, could  and  would handle anything  in  Africa.  All anyone has to do is to look at the facts, in a 50 Alaskan  a person can get a 525 gr. bullet   goingf 2000 fps.  There is nothing that this would not stop, not to mention the fact  this makes a half inch hole without expansion.  I hear a lot about 4570, which is a great round.  The 50 Alaskan is even better, but seems to be ignored by anybody I wouldn't hesitate to  hunt anything   in Africa with the 50 Alaskan., thank you,  Kevin
 

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Kev... isn't that 50 Alaskan just to much to handle in say a guide gun?  I thought my .45-70 was hot, but 500+gr over  2000fps?!?! WOW.
 

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hello,

I hear a lot of talk of the 4570 for use in Africa, which I think it would do well  for  its range.  It seems like I am one of the very few people who believes that the 50 Alaskan  would do even better, nothing against the 4570 is a great  round.  If you look at the facts from  muzzle energy to diameter of the round and weight of the bullet it is easy to see the 50 Alaskan is right up there with many rounds have been used in Africa for years.
 

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Kevin, don't think that anyone would disagree with your assessment of the .50 Alaskan's capabilities.  But.... I imagine that the recoil would be more than most people can handle.

Sounds like a real thumper.
 

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As far as recoil goes, my 1886 in .50-110 WCF recoils about the same as my 1895 in .405 WCF. Both of these rounds are not quite as potent as the .50 Alaskan. I would not hesitate to use either rifle for cape buffalo (or my '86 in .45-90 WCF for that matter) as long as I didn't have to stop a charging animal. A mad buffalo at full sprint can soak up a lot of energy!
Dave
 

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HI,

THE 4570 YES GREAT ROUND,BUT AFRICA I WILL TAKE MY 50 ALASKAN AND A 525 GRAIN BULLET AT 2000FPS WILL TAKE ANY AFRICAN GAME. EVERY FORMULA AND EVERY BIT OF FACT PROVES THIS.  THANKS,KEV
 

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HI,

THE 4570 YES GREAT ROUND,BUT AFRICA I WILL TAKE MY 50 ALASKAN AND A 525 GRAIN BULLET AT 2000FPS WILL TAKE ANY AFRICAN GAME. EVERY FORMULA AND EVERY BIT OF FACT PROVES THIS.  THANKS,KEV
 

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HI,

It is kind of funny to hear this, as I also have talk to many at the Accuraterreloading forum. And I also got a limition of what a 50 Alasakn could do,I was informated that in order for it to take cape buffalo I would have to get a 525 grain bullet going 2000fps.I thought if it was going 1850 to 2000 it would not matter to much.I am going to get it going 2000fps,just to show it can, alot of people think it can't I known it can. I think .512,525 grain bullet would stop any cape buffalo,maybe I am inexperience. KEV
 
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