Win 94 barrel mounted reflex sight

1027 Views 33 Replies 7 Participants Last post by nsb, 2 mo ago

drone

Discussion Starter · 3 mo ago

Went onto reddotmate.com and bought a mounting plate for a reflex sight that fits on a drilled and tapped dovetail that goes where the rear sight mounts. $18.99 including shipping from China, got it inside a week, it is superb. Now all I have to do is buy the sight. I fancy a vortex viper anyone on here used them and, if so, what are they like.
Many thanks in advance.

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nsb

· #21 · 3 mo ago

drone said:
Here and fitted, quite pleased but disappointed to find I have astigmatism, never mind an oblong red dot will have to do. View attachment 107705 View attachment 107706

I wouldn’t be concerned about the astigmatism. I too have an astigmatism and it hasn’t hurt my shooting to any degree that I can measure. Look up at the #17 response to this post. I shot these (and many others) groups using a Win 1885 lever gun in 45-70. I couldn’t have done better using a scope at 114 yards. I see a “comma” when I look through a red dot. I just place it the same each time on the target. I shot competition matches for years with this condition and it was very unusual for anyone to beat me shooting a handgun. It’s really not as significant as you’d think it is. You’d have to have absurdly bad astigmatism to have it make a difference. Before getting Lasik eye surgery I’d see three dots, two small ones and one big one. It never changed in how it looked so I just used the “big dot” in the sight picture. Do some expiramenting before giving up or getting discouraged. I think you’ll be surprised.

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drone

Discussion Starter · #22 · 3 mo ago

NSB, I don't get discouraged but longer range experimentation is on hold for a couple of months, local ranges closed for civilian use.
Nice groups btw, I keep putting off buying a 45/70 as I don't think the rotator cuff in my shoulder is up to continual pummelling, that and I don't like the crescent butt plate on the miroku 1886.
I'm waiting for the ruger marlins to show up might push the boat out then and I won't have to worry about the winchester police.
Going back to the vortex red dot, it makes that little 94 so quick, I was swinging (just dry firing) at the pigeons and crows flying over, I'm pretty sure it's twice as quick to get the dot on target as it is with the williams with the small peep removed and using it as a ghost ring. Think I might get a red dot for my shotgun for wing shooting.
I hope this red dot is successful as I gave nearly 30% more cash for it than I did for the 94.

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nsb

· #23 · 3 mo ago

drone said:
NSB, I don't get discouraged but longer range experimentation is on hold for a couple of months, local ranges closed for civilian use.
Nice groups btw, I keep putting off buying a 45/70 as I don't think the rotator cuff in my shoulder is up to continual pummelling, that and I don't like the crescent butt plate on the miroku 1886.
I'm waiting for the ruger marlins to show up might push the boat out then and I won't have to worry about the winchester police.
Going back to the vortex red dot, it makes that little 94 so quick, I was swinging (just dry firing) at the pigeons and crows flying over, I'm pretty sure it's twice as quick to get the dot on target as it is with the williams with the small peep removed and using it as a ghost ring. Think I might get a red dot for my shotgun for wing shooting.
I hope this red dot is successful as I gave nearly 30% more cash for it than I did for the 94.

Win/Miroku made the 1886 with both crescent and shotgun types of butt plates. I have a shotgun style butt plate on mine. Shooting loads using a 405g bullet and “moderate/mild” powder charges (think Trapdoor loads) the gun isn’t the least bit uncomfortable to shoot. FWIW, I have yet to recover a bullet from a deer with those loads….they go though at any angle like a hot knife through butter. I’ve shot sporting clays with a couple of guys using red dots on their shotguns and they both did quite well at it. I’m talking high thirties to low forties. Yes, they can work quite well on a shotgun.

drone

Discussion Starter · #24 · 3 mo ago

nsb, at least if it doesn't work on the 94, it'll transition to the mod 23 win.
It actually comes with a nifty base that fastens to a pic rail and I've seen some adaptors on e-bay dirt cheap that fasten to the rib of a shotgun, only prob is my 23 is a sbs.

Model 52

· #25 · 3 mo ago

drone said:
NSB, I don't get discouraged but longer range experimentation is on hold for a couple of months, local ranges closed for civilian use.
Nice groups btw, I keep putting off buying a 45/70 as I don't think the rotator cuff in my shoulder is up to continual pummelling, that and I don't like the crescent butt plate on the miroku 1886.
I'm waiting for the ruger marlins to show up might push the boat out then and I won't have to worry about the winchester police.
Going back to the vortex red dot, it makes that little 94 so quick, I was swinging (just dry firing) at the pigeons and crows flying over, I'm pretty sure it's twice as quick to get the dot on target as it is with the williams with the small peep removed and using it as a ghost ring. Think I might get a red dot for my shotgun for wing shooting.
I hope this red dot is successful as I gave nearly 30% more cash for it than I did for the 94.

I have an 1885 High Wall in .30-30 that is quite popular with the older gentleman who have shot it as it provides the fun of a classic single shot without the abuse of the .45-70 cartridge they are often chambered in.

I also own four Model 94 rifles in .38-55 in various configurations. I definitely prefer them to the .45-70 I own as the smaller rifles have better weight and handling as well as better recoil traits. They range in weight from 6 pounds 14 oz to 8 pounds 2 oz and I don’t mind the crescent butt plates on three of them and don’t see any real advantage to the shot gun butt plate on the fourth.

In my experience the major problem with crescent but plates is that people fail to recognize:

it’s optimized for off hand shooting;
designed to be shot with the butt plate placed out on the upper bicep and not tucked into the pocket of the shoulder; and
designed to be shot with the rifle coming across the chest at more of an angle than is the norm with a shot gun butt plate, and if properly stocked, the length of pull will reflect that.

——

I disagree with you on the red dot sight being faster on movIng targets. Again, I’ve shot both extensively. With both eyes open and the aperture removed from the tang sight you have no obstruction other than the barrel and front sight blade. With a red dot, you are adding in the sight base and the body of the sight as well as the frame around the glass.

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nsb

· #26 · 3 mo ago

“I disagree with you on the red dot sight being faster on movIng targets. Again, I’ve shot both extensively. With both eyes open and the aperture removed from the tang sight you have no obstruction other than the barrel and front sight blade. With a red dot, you are adding in the sight base and the body of the sight as well as the frame around the glass.”

Feel free to disagree. We all have opinions. Some based in experience. Some. Regarding how fast you can pick up a target with a red dot? I live in WNY and I used to shoot sporting clays with a guy who came down from Canada to shoot. He was primarily a handgun shooter who shot as a factory sponsored shooter in handgun matches (big ones, not local). He used a red dot on his sporting clays shotgun and I shot many times with him where he shot in the 40’s on a 50 bird course. I myself could hit the rabbit targets at about an 80% rate when sent off the trap at a ninety degree angle to me while I was using a .22lr match pistol. I had a Burris FF2 on the gun at the time. This was at a big 3 gun shoot in S.E. Pennsylvania. As far as recoil and and “older gentlemen”, I’m 74 and of medium stature and weight. I can sit at the bench and shoot Trapdoor loads at extended range sessions. It’s OK to have differing opinions on any subject, but it’s up to the OP to decide what he wants to use. I’d strongly suggest anyone who’s sitting on the fence try several options before choosing.

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drone

Discussion Starter · #27 · 3 mo ago (Edited)

Differing opinions are what makes life interesting, all I know is as I approach my 80th birthday I feel that my responses are much quicker with the red dot than with the Williams. I gotta say that in my late 70s what's fast to me may well be slo-mo to anyone else; but it makes me happy and that counts far more for me than arguing the toss about which is better, faster, slimmer, bigger or whatever.
Wife bought a new car the other day and took me out for a ride, ended up in the LGS, bought 40 winchester 30/30 150 grain power points for a knock down price and found he had a Rossi 357 model 92 lookalike on commission sale , I think it's going to come home with me even though it's stainless but for a couple of hundred GBPs I'll be happy.
Just got to get my firearms cert spare slots allocated.
Just for comparison it's about 20% of the cost of a new miroku 1886 they have there and I can't resist a bargain.
Model52, it has one of those crescent butt plates and, following your advice, I mounted the gun like you said and it was ok except for the shop owner muttering something about shooting off of horseback - don't know what he means. The sights are appalling, another candidate for a red dot, eh?

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drone

Discussion Starter · #28 · 3 mo ago

FWIW I was going to dream on about buying a 94 in 25/35 before I got the Rossi laid away, thing is they are so expensive over here, don't know why that should be but it is.
I spent the better part of yesterday researching (ie looking through duckduckgo) ones for sale, found 3, two were the very early 1900s the other was 1922 ish and the price made me shiver so I'm not having any of that soon.
Pity as that's quite a nice balanced round.

dimaprok

· #29 · 3 mo ago

Model 52 said:
Turnbull Restorations sells a mount for Noblex foot print dot sights like the Burris Fast Fire 2, 3, and 4, the Vortex Venom and Viper, etc. It’s not cheap, but it’s well made and works well.

It uses a dove tail filler that the mount then screws to, and the mount itself conforms to the barrel profile on round barrel Model 94 and Model 92 rifles.
Red Dot Mount for Model 94 and 1892 | Use with Vortex and Burris Sights

I have the same setup but I don't like Burris Red Dot it's not as uniform dot as my Vortex I have on my pistol. It could be my eyes too I've seen a lot of posts on how some people see different defects in red dots while others don't.

drone

Discussion Starter · #30 · 2 mo ago

Got to put best part of 100 rounds downrange using the red dot.
I am absolutely delighted with it. Used winchester and speer 150 grn, hornady 160 grn and federal 170 grn factory rounds and a bunch of different handloads from 120 grn cast 32 pistol bullets at subsonic speed, 167 grn at about 1600 fps and 173 grn at about 1900 fps, gun performed flawlessly, all cast bullets with gcs and liquid alox. No leading that I could see.
Factory loads grouped around 2" - 3" cast bullets, except for the subsonics, about the same or just marginally bigger but the 120grn bullets just sprayed all over the shop. At about 50 yards range prone with no rest.
I think I'll have to decide which bullets I want to reload and just settle on the one.
The only problem I encountered was with my spectacles, they are varifocal and it was pissing with rain and they kept sliding down my nose so the dot kept changing shape and size, I'm due an eye test and I'll try and get some frames that actually don't move down one's nose; hard call when it's raining and I've got naturally greasy skin.
I also got a mis-shaped nose which happened when I fell through the ugly tree at birth

.
I can now sit and reflect that the red dot cost me 25% more than the bloody rifle did. Ho-hum.

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drone

Discussion Starter · #31 · 2 mo ago

Was looking at the set up on my 94 and thinking, what if, as in what if I could mount the red dot on a picatinny adaptor attached with the 2 machine screws that currently secure the williams peep sight.
So I started duckduckgo searches for an adaptor that would fit the 94's hole pattern as I knew the vortex came with a picatinny adaptor, which I promptly fished out.

Font Rectangle Triangle Art Drawing

Looking at the image, from bottom to top, the lowest is my original doodle, highest is the adaptor that comes with the Venom sight and the central one is the adaptor I'll have to make to fit it to the gun.
The only fly in the ointment is the adaptor mounting screw is in the wrong position by 180 degrees to have the sight in the correct orientation. I'm pretty sure I'll be able to drive the bolt out of the adaptor plate or drill it out and substitute another to get the thing correctly mounted.
The Vortex adaptor is made out of steel and when mounted the clamp rails sit on the receiver sides and, with a touch of metal removal on the cross bolt, this will fit clear of the acton bolt on the gun.
If you watch this space, please don't hold your breath though.

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nsb

· #32 · 2 mo ago

Turnbull makes both a barrel mount and a receiver mount for the Win. Save time and trouble and just get one of them.

Red Dot Mounts for Vortex, Trijicon, Burris and Other Sights | Fits Winchester Rifles

Red dot mounts for Vortex Venom, Trijicon RMR, Burris FastFire 3, and other sights. Fits Winchester 94, 1892, 1886 and Model 71 lever action rifles.

www.turnbullrestoration.com

drone

Discussion Starter · #33 · 2 mo ago

Yes I see that, but I don't object to spending the time and making my own for peanuts as paying the USPS $25 to send it and our government a further 20% of the total amount in tax.
So about $180, it just isn't value for money when compared with about $1 to knock a bit of metal out with 3 holes, bearing in mind I have a perfectly good mount adaptor gong begging.
Since I retired, jobs like this help from going stir crazy.
Just to make it look well finished I'll even use my cast bullet powder coating kit to make it black. God that'll add about the same again for the powder.
Many thanks for the interest though, it's appreciated.

nsb

· #34 · 2 mo ago

drone said:
Yes I see that, but I don't object to spending the time and making my own for peanuts as paying the USPS $25 to send it and our government a further 20% of the total amount in tax.
So about $180, it just isn't value for money when compared with about $1 to knock a bit of metal out with 3 holes, bearing in mind I have a perfectly good mount adaptor gong begging.
Since I retired, jobs like this help from going stir crazy.
Just to make it look well finished I'll even use my cast bullet powder coating kit to make it black. God that'll add about the same again for the powder.
Many thanks for the interest though, it's appreciated.

I had no idea they were that expensive. When I got mine for the 1886 about ten years ago it was somewhere around sixty or seventy bucks, and I thought that was a little high. I probably wouldn‘t pay 180 either. Good luck.

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