[Sunday Creek]

Hi picked up a Winchester Black Shadow in .444 today. The price could not be beat and I prefer the Winchester profile to the Marlin, though I do have a Marlin Guide Gun. But, this .444 has a 1 in 30 twist and a synthetic stock. Marshall, if you read this, please let know what you would recommend for a load and what I can expect. I am also looking for the best load for my BLR in .308. Marshall, if you respond, I will send you one of my Christian novels. Aw heck, I'll send you one anyway.
Sunday Creek

 

[Starrbow]

I have been using RL7 and Speer 270gr Gold Dots for around 2100fps. The Winchester is a real light and handy rifle.
You don't want to run a lot of real hot loads through it will not take it well. I put a Williams peep on it and can shoot 1.5 groups @100.  So far I can not get cast Bullets to shoot real good, still trying through, it was a pain in the neck to lightin up the Trigger..have fun with it....Marko    


(Edited by Starrbow at 1:21 pm on Feb. 4, 2002)

 

[Sunday Creek]

Thanks, Marko. Do you have a wood or synthetic stock? I like the  Black Shadow look but not the hollow feel. I was wondering about stuffing the stock with foam rubber or something. As much as i like cast bullets, Tim Sundles at Buffalo Bore has told me this rifle does not handle cast bullets well.

 

[Starrbow]

I have a wood stock, I also do not like the hollow feel of plastic I think you can convert to wood it may be a bit costly ........in all the the 444 marlin is a fine round.
..........................Marko

 

[William Iorg]

Sunday Creek

I would sure like for you to measure your twist.
I would be interested in what you see.
Your barrel is not ported so I would like to know how a tight patch feels when it is pushed through the barrel, do you feel any tight spots?
I have a timber carbine that had a very smooth barrel right out of the box. I have not had leading problems with this rifle, even around the #&#36%^ ports.
I have not had any trouble with my rifle but I would like to re-barrel it to the 24" to get rid of the ports.

The Happy Kaboomer I think has had some trouble with his, maybe he could comment if he sees this.

I have not shot any groups in the 1.5" range at 100 yds jacket or cast. I have gotten under two inches on occasion. I am talking full power loads here. The rifle will shoot in the 1 1/2" "range" with loads of about 1900 fps.

 

[The Happy Kaboomer]

Starrbow is right.The win. won't stand alot of heavy load shooting. My second timber carbine doesn't like cast bullets. I really haven't tried much load development with it as I have been shooting the [email protected]&#36#@% out of my .444p. It likes just about anything you run through it. Has over 800 rounds and is still going strong.
I agree with you that the win. is lighter and looks alittle better.  If I find a good jacketed load that the win. likes I'll keep it. Otherwise its gonna get traded on another marlin. I really don't like guns that I have to baby.

 

[Starrbow]

HK,
     Try RL#7  I think around 46grains and a Speer Gold Dot 270grainer also use a lee crimper, it's a mid level load around 2100fps it should slay them SC whiteails with ease. I Didn't get to hunt much this year between Work and Fishing. I also live and play in SC around the Greenwood area.........Marko

 

[Sunday Creek]

Thanks guys, and the info on my other post regardiong Proshootpro.com for 200 grain cast bullets looks promising, too. Now, are there Winchester conversions available as there are for Marlins? I am not happy with my action at this point, and the lever  is real sloppy and even catches parts of my palm after cycling sometimes. And, have you seen Winchesters with Scout scopes. I put a Tasco EXP on my Black Shadow yesterday and every third or fourth cartridge would not come out of the angle-eject because of striking the adjustment knob. Tried several small scopes and they looked like they would be a problem, too. Do I have to go for high or superhigh scope mounts?

 

[William Iorg]

I like the Weaver mounts and Millett Angle Lock rings for the fixed power scopes.

For variables I like the Burris rings and mounts because you can get extended rings. The extended rings move the turrets out of the way of the ejected cartridge. This way you can use low rings. Remember the Weaver bases are really pretty high anyway.

 

[pourboy]

I've had a Winchester BigBore in .444   ever since they were first announced. Mine does have a rough bore, but I hesitate to alter it in any way because it is very accurate (for a lever action). Some of you have said that the Winchester action cannot handle hotter loads. This is exactly opposite to my experiences, and I was wondering what these statements are based on. My BigBore seems appreciably stronger than my equivalent Marlin (45-70), and a lot less fussier about what it will shoot well. ==Bob

 

[Starrbow]

All I can tell you is from my own Winchester 444. With heavy loads most the screws back out or loosen up and because of the light rifle it will kick like a pissed mule.

All I run through mine now is moderate loads at best and thats all i need it to do as it is only used on whitetails. For the heavy loads I use my Marlin it's much
heavier and it has a 24" barrel plus the stock has a very high Comb on it and it puts you right on the peeps.
I'm trying to get Cast to shoot good  in the Winchester it's proven a little harder then most other lever Guns I have.

You can't beat the Winchester for thick brush it's short and light as for Marlins all mine shoot very good once the barrel was lapped very forgiving with most bullets But that Winchester it's as pig headed as my Kids!.....Marko

(Edited by Starrbow at 12:33 pm on Feb. 5, 2002)

 

[Sunday Creek]

Pourboy and others, have any of you tried ghost rings on your Winchesters or filled the hollow stock (if your stock is hollow, so far  I have found no one else that claims to own a Shadow Version of the .444), and have you found the hammer pull to be rather stiff so that in cocking the lever the bolt strains to push the hammer back? Questions, questions, questions...

 

[William Iorg]

Frank Kelly over on Sixgunner is the only person I have ever seen make mention of having a Black Shadow. I think his has a 24" barrel.

My lever is smooth and easy to operate. Thats one of the things I really like about this rifle. I was not really interested in the .444 Marlin until I picked up the pistol gripped Timber Carbine. I certainly wish this rifle was a .307 or .356. I admit that I am becoming very fond of the .444.
Are you saying that the bolt has to push down the hammer? I assume that it is not difficult to cock the hammer with your thumb?

 

[Sunday Creek]

The hammer comes down via the thumb easy enough, but in cycling the next round the action is pretty sticky. I love how this gun feels and it looks nice, but the action is not as smooth and strong-feeling and the open sights are difficult for me to see. This afternoon I took a load of barnes X bullets in 250 grain and shot with both the Winchester and the Marlin. Got much better groups with the Marlin (open factory sights on both) but I suspect that may have been partially due to the sights on the Marlin easier to pick up.

 

[Sunday Creek]

Whoops, made a mistake in that post. I was also shooting my NEF in the Barnes bullets. So, I was shooting the Winchester with factory ammo in 245 grains. So, the calibers and ammo are different, my main comparison being between the sights and the action.

 

[IDShooter]

Sunday Creek,
     As for that hollow stock; take the buttpad off and fill the stock with the canned foam insulation they sell at hardware stores. Spray in less than you think you need because it continues to swell, since it's made to expand and fill cracks around doors and windows. Let it cure and then cut off any that protrudes from the buttstock with a razor knife. The ideal situation would be for the foam to protrude an inch or so when it is dry, that way it's not real messy before it dries but you still have enough to work with so you can get a nice smooth cut. Then just put the buttpad back on and you don't have that hollow gourd sound. I did this on my Rem 700 with synthetic stock and it worked great. Interestingly, my Mod 70 synthetic stock came already filled with foam and doesn't have the hollow sound!    IDShooter

 

[William Iorg]

Sunday Creek

i have written Winchester about the cheap round bead front sight they use. It shoots "to the light". I dont really think they care. If you shoulder you rifle near a window you will see how the light only illuminates half the bead.

A Williams reciever sight is a very good low cost option for a rear sight.

Brownells has Marbles front sights. I like post front sights better than beads for reciever sights.

Does your action have catches like there are burrs? Do you like Flitz or JB paste would help to smooth it up?

 

[m141a]

Just listening in on all the chatter, thanks for the info.  I'm buying an 18" T.C. new in box and was looking for some loads.  Also try Cabelas for replacement stocks... got mine for my 30-30 '94
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[RugerNo3]

A well tuned M94 Wi action will never feel as smooth as a Marlin 336/1895. They function differently and that is the reason they feel differently. You have to acquire a taste for one or the other. The Win feeds a round into the carrier in the downstroke cycle where the leverage is weakest and the Marlin feeds on the upstroke where leverage is greater. I think you can find the Black Shadows for $310 on www.gunfinder.net/

 

[Starrbow]

The Action is strong enougth, but with Heavy loads the screws back out or get loose and the light weight of the rifle kicks somewhat smartly, Don't get me wrong I like the Winchester  it's what I grab when I hunt  but I stick to moderate level loads with it.......................................Marko