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Discussion Starter #1
So I've basically decided that I'm going to purchase the Winchester model 70 Super Grade. I'm going with new, (not BRAND new, but 2015 or 2016 barely used. The "new" was to clarify not the old winchesters.) because it has a nice free floated barrel, a great trigger, awesome wood, and it's not abnormally heavy. Also Winchester is back to using the pre 64 style Mauser claw extractor, with a 24" barrel. They say every one of them shoots a minute of angle out of the box (but I'm sure that changes based off of ammo). The only downside I have with it, is that it has a full 90° bolt throw, which makes low scopes an issue.

Anyone with one of these know how low I can mount a 40, 42, 50, 56mm objective? I like big objectives for the dusk/dawn coyote hunting and the light transmission. I prefer a one piece mount but I'm not against a two piece.

What scope mount and rings do you guys have on your setups?
Pictures would be nice too :cool:
And I'm thinking leupold 3-9x50, or something by 56mm. Looking forward to replies

Also, if you have a super grade, post some pics! I always enjoy the sight of a fine rifle.
 

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Rifleman97, where did you get this ninety degree bolt trash from? MOST bolt actions have that degree of bolt lift, and it isn't a matter of how low you can get the scope, based on the bolt throw! You will run out of room up front before you'll drag the bolt on a scope! The Model 70 is ninety, the Rem. 700 is, the Savage 110's are, the Howa is, do you really want me to go on? And the granddaddy '98 Mauser does too! Now that we've covered that, there is an advantage to a ninety degree throw, in that the effort to open the bolt is less. I have a Model 70 Featherweight and am happy with mine! It is set up in Leupold double dovetail mount and rings and snaps up to the shoulder with eyes looking right down the 3-9 scope. It has some beautiful fiddleback walnut in the stock, and is very handsome, overall.
 

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I'm with BSB. The front lens interference with the barrel limits scope height. Ninety degree bolt throw means the bolt has dual opposed lugs instead of three, six or nine. (I don't and wont own a 60 deg. bolt throw gun)
My dawn and dusk coyote rifle has an old 2-7 Leupold on it. Small scopes mount low, big scopes have to be high and cause the balance of the rifle to be WAY off!!

PRACTICALITY is king--I'd rather have one small Leupold that three scopes that are too big, bulky, heavy and ugly to mount on a rifle.
 

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Within your other thread I posted pictures of 3 of the 5 M70s I now own. All have scopes with objectives under 40mm, being 32-33mm. One is a picture of my .308 Super Grade at the range sporting a Leupold 2-7×33 in what I believe to be low rings.

The biggest problem you will find if you do go with the scope you mentioned will not be with bolt clearance it will be with the objective bell clearing the barrel with a 3-9×50 (unless you are going with the Leupold model with the objective lens that is cut out for barrel clearance)

I think that most experienced hunters would advise against a 50mm objective scope on a hunting rifle. In many cases, that large an objective will cause a need for high rings and that will likely also cause some problems with your cheek weld on the stock.
 

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I'm with BSB. The front lens interference with the barrel limits scope height. Ninety degree bolt throw means the bolt has dual opposed lugs instead of three, six or nine. (I don't and wont own a 60 deg. bolt throw gun)
My dawn and dusk coyote rifle has an old 2-7 Leupold on it. Small scopes mount low, big scopes have to be high and cause the balance of the rifle to be WAY off!!

PRACTICALITY is king--I'd rather have one small Leupold that three scopes that are too big, bulky, heavy and ugly to mount on a rifle.

You wouldn't own a Sauer 90?
 

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Agree with the answers you already been offered. Personally don't care for scopes over 42 or 44mm. Anything bigger is of no asset and more of a liability. The lense quality and coatings have more effect on light transmission than objective diameter. The rifle i most often grab when going coyote hunting has a 3-9x40 Leupold that seldom comes off 3x.

JBelk, Why don't you care for 60 degree rifles?
 

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60DRB-- If I had such an ugly POS I'd give it to you. I've worked on them but they have just about every single feature I don't like about a rifle. Put it in a Tupperware stock and it would be a perfect reject.
Edit to modify-- They ARE all steel and the bolts ARE polished lineraly and extremely well. Their fit is perfect and the finish of the operating parts can't be beat by anybody but and old Mannlicher by Schonauer. So the rifles ARE as slick as anything that's every been made, but FUGLY and so badly over polished it hurts me.

MonteF-- The mechanical actions that make a rifle perfectly reliable takes ninety degrees of rotation to accomplish with 18 lbs of effort. Dr. Dvorak confirmed in the 1920s what P. Mauser determined in the 1880s and Hatcher noted in the 19 teens, that 18 lbs of arm lift is the maximum for the average worker of the time. That's why a M98 (and nearly all military bolt actions) have 18lbs or less bolt lift on a fired round.
:) :)
Suffice to say, I've owned one three lug rifle and it bugs the daylights out of me to have an 'incomplete' bolt lift. I thought I'd get used to it but it just made me mad and I traded it after three days.

Seriously, extraction effort is WAY higher in 60 deg. guns and I find that a distraction. I try really hard to attain Mauser's ideals in a bolt action rifle. EVERYTHING else is a compromise and I'd rather not. That line is hard to draw because Mauser himself compromised when it was advantageous to do so. He changed to through hardened alloy steel for receivers and bolts in 1924 because it extended the life of the rifles and was cheaper and easier and more certain to do than pack-case hardening, sometimes up to SIX times to get the glass hardness but toughness needed in cocking pieces. Can you tell the difference in a 1909 Argentine (case hard) and a G33-40 (alloy)? Yes, if you handle enough of them you can pass a blindfolded test. I've done it.

I get REALLY aggravated at what I see for sale, but the trade has been degraded to the point of pure junk being the 'norm'. Rant off, its not even daylight yet!
 
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MonteF-- The mechanical actions that make a rifle perfectly reliable takes ninety degrees of rotation to accomplish with 18 lbs of effort. Dr. Dvorak confirmed in the 1920s what P. Mauser determined in the 1880s and Hatcher noted in the 19 teens, that 18 lbs of arm lift is the maximum for the average worker of the time. That's why a M98 (and nearly all military bolt actions) have 18lbs or less bolt lift on a fired round.
You stated the only negative I've found with my Abolts concerning function. I noticed Browning uses a roller on the cocking piece to follow the cam. Must be to relieve some of the required effort. Thanks for the reply!
 

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MontyF-- I haven't seen an ABolt in years so went looking for your roller but didn't find it. The Savage uses a roller cocking cam. Of course the gunsmithing cynic in me sees it as cheaper that way. ;)

If you ever get a chance, look closely at a M98 cocking piece and bolt. and how they interact together. (then think of an idiot with a Dremel thinking he'll 'improve' it.)

That one helix cam on two parts cost more to do than an entire Savage bolt.
 

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Very good! That's a good example of using new technology to solve old problems.

Here is the roller on a 1905 Browning A-5 hammer where it bears on the flat mainspring.

Now do one favor while you have it out. Trace how that roller contacts the cocking cam of the bolt. Geometry says it has to have a compromise in the axle angle to make it work for even 60 degrees. They don't work on 90 degree actions because of the 'scrubbing' at one end or other.
 

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Big objectives

My .02. None of my rifles wear anything larger than a 44 dia, and most are smaller. I've only owned 1 50mm on a scope over the years and it went on 1 hunt and was then sold. Light gathering at dawn and dusk for me has never been a problem in a good scope. But try to get that 50 dia or larger scope out of a scabbard on a horse back hunt in a hurry.
The only clearance problems I've had with scopes is with the old Redfield wide view rear eye piece, clearing the bolt handle. Just my opinion and we all have them.
 

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Very good! That's a good example of using new technology to solve old problems.

Now do one favor while you have it out. Trace how that roller contacts the cocking cam of the bolt. Geometry says it has to have a compromise in the axle angle to make it work for even 60 degrees. They don't work on 90 degree actions because of the 'scrubbing' at one end or other.
The compromise I see is a heavy loading on the roller/pin as main spring is compressed in so few degrees. Also the portion that holds the roller in double shear is thinned down enough to prevent it from digging into the cam. Potential durability issue?
 

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So, the operation of the rifle is reduced to the axle of the roller. Will it bend or will it break or will it wear in half? Paul Mauser would not accept that!!
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Good information

I have been looking at a lot of new design (ugly as **** but accurate) rifles and many of them advertise a 60 or 70° bolt throw, and the ones that don't, don't say anything. So I just figured they were the norm.

I have hunted with a 3-9x40 at dusk and a 3.5-10x44 at dusk, and the 3.5-10x44 had much better light transmission, to the point that with both scopes on low power I couldn't see crap through the 40, but I could see enough to make out a coyote through the 44. Sometimes I like to hunt at 2 or 3 in the morning in the winter snow on a full moon night, because the coyotes are out around then and you have just enough light to use 5 or 6 power. I don't want anything smaller than a 40 for that reason, but by the sounds of it, I don't want anything larger than a 44.

Is there a brand of scopes for the same price range as the $500 leupolds that are better? Optic clarity and recoil toughness as well.
 

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In my world, Leupold is still the one others are judged by. Others might be better optically, but suffer ugliness in too great a proportion to buy one, but I still shoot a Kolmorgran Bearcub so what could I know? ;)
 
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Discussion Starter #17
I like the Nightforce SHV. Tougher and better optical clarity (night and day between them and leupold) but it's out of my price range. I think the cheapest one is in the $800 range
 

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I have a Burris Fullfield II 3.5-10x 50mm scope mounted on my M70 30-06 using Burris Signature Zee MEDIUM rings. This setup provides about 1/8" clearance for the objective lens.



Same setup BUT HIGH rings.



This is approximately 105 yards from a bench & using a Caldwell shooting rest.

 

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Discussion Starter #19
What do you guys think of the Leupold VX R 3-9x40? For sunny days in the snow I will probably get a detachable sunshade, and for coyote hunting and "normal" days just leave it at home. New is about 499.99, any thoughts? It is a classy looking scope that fits the style of the M70 Super Grade in my opinion. Nice looking, fairly clear glass (I got spoiled with a Swarovski on a hunting trip with a family member's gun, if I am ever rich, I'm getting one for all my guns)
 
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