Shooters Forum banner
21 - 31 of 31 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
21 Posts
As for availability of 45-90 ammo, Buffalo Arms would also be my first stop. I've bought 45-120 and 50-140 Sharps ammo from them, but both were on back-order for a while.
My only 1886 is a late 1990s-vintage Miroku in 45-70, which I intend to have converted to 50-100-450. Other posters have beaten me to the punch with most of what I could have said. One thing you should check in addition to rifling twist rate is whether your "vintage" 1886's barrel is of nickel steel and so marked. From all I've read, if the barrel is not made of nickel steel, loads for it should not exceed blackpowder pressures.
In his collector book, Winchester Lever Actions, Volume 2, The Models of 1886 and 1892, (ISBN 1-882391-13-6) Arthur Pirkle writes on pages 76-77 "Barrels of nickel steel were sometimes installed on the M1886 rifle and carbine after 1895 (circa serial #95,000) when these barrels were first introduced. They were marked on the left side...

NICKEL STEEL BARREL
ESPECIALLY FOR SMOKELESS POWDER

"After circa serial #150,000, this marking was dropped and nickel steel barrels were marked:
NICKEL STEEL
"
Some of the very last Model 1886s which were made up of parts on hand in the late 1920s and early 1930s without nickel steel barrels may be marked "WINCHESTER PROOF STEEL" on the barrel."
I'm sure that serious collectors are sure to know more about this aspect than I do.
Further on this. I wondered how proof steel compared with nickel steel for strength, since my Savage 99C rifles are stamped PROOF STEEL. Following is from link:
What is Winchester proof steel?
Introduced around 1940, Winchester Proof Steel is the alloy used by Winchester to manufacture it's firearms. It replaced nickel steel, used in the early production Winchester 94's to withstand the power of the first 'main stream' smokeless powder rifle cartridge - the .30 WCF, now known as the .30-30. Note, however, that the 94 Winchester was introduced in .30 WCF a year after the production of blackpowder 94s. Winchester Proof is stronger than nickel steel, and holds blueing better. The nickel in nickel steel made blueing flake off of receivers and barrels of Winchester rifles over long periods of time.
Winchester introduced Proof Steel in 1931, and began using it for the Model 94 in April of 1932. "Proof Steel" is a chrome-moly alloy.

Is there a metallurgist in the house? :giggle:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
463 Posts
CRS, I've seen your content on other forums as I've been researching smokeless 45-90 loads. Glad to see you here, your contributions to this subject are appreciated
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
278 Posts
Lets start with the fact that the 45-90Win was made as a express cartridge.This implies that it was designed for lighter bullets at greater velocity that the standard weight 405-550grs bullets of the time. These bullet weights ranged from 300-350grs. I have been loading the 45-90 for my neighbors model 1886 rifle for a couple of years now and have been buying the brass from starline. My dies were made by Lyman which included their great M die. My bullets came from Montana bullet works and cast from 20-1 alloy lubed with SPG. Sized .459". To duplicate the velocity of the time with smokeless powder I am using 31grs. of XMP-5744 powder. If you plan on using black powder try 80grs of 1 1/2fg.swiss with a 24in drop tube to charge the case with a powder card atop the powder before seating a 300gr cast bullet. Good luck with your project and know would be a great time to learn to reload.No ammo shortage for us!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
463 Posts
Curious, is XMP5477 the same as Accurate 5744? I know Accurate 5744 is a very commonly used powder for these old high capacity big bores with no shortage of published data for it in this context. I've had great results with it in 45-70 and plan to try it in 45-90 as well among a couple others.

And I do plan to use bullets in the 300-350gr weight 👍🏻
 

·
The Shadow (Moderator)
Joined
·
9,383 Posts
No, it isn't.

Buffalo Bore is made by Explosia A.S. in Czechoslovakia.
Whether under the "Accurate" branding, or the XMP moniker, that powder is from General Dynamic's Quebec plant.

Folks really need to stop looking at RELATIVE burn rate charts, as if they actually yell you much of anything useful; without having a bunch of functional powder knowledge.


To the question of: "Is XMP5744 and Accurate 5744 the same thing?" The answer depends on what you are honestly asking.
If you are talking generally speaking, 30,000' overview; then yes it's the same thing.

If you are asking if it's "the same thing" and are planning on cutting and pasting load data, then no it's not the same thing.

XMP is a parent powder designation, used by General Dynamics for some of their powders.

"Accurate" being one of many of Hodgdon's canister names, is a moving blends of various ages, additives, and lots; of a general burning range of parent powders.

Cheers
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
ECHOPLEX,
Please define what you mean by VINTAGE.
Some use that word to mean an old design and others mean a physically old gun. No Miroku made 1886 rifles are
Vintage. Their 45-90 also has the same barrel twist and the Miroku 45-70. Bullets from 300 grains to 500 grains shoot fine in those barrels.

FYI, I have two Miroku made Winchester 1886 rifles. One is a 45-70 and the other is a 45-90. Both have been hunted hard in the USA and in Africa and always delivered the needed performance.
FYI, I have done most of my USA hunting with 45-70 ammo in my 45-90 and NEVER had any fouling or crud or deposits in the chamber. Cleaning a rifle after use just makes common sense. With Winchester 300 grain ammo with Nosler PP bullets, the bullet is well into the bore BEFORE it leaves the cartridge case.

I also have a Beretta 45-70 double rifle that is presently having the chambers reamed to 45-90 specs. The 45-90 cartridge has about 96% of the powder capacity of the .458 Win Mag and our African loads were 450 grain solids at 2150 fps. That will knock down Bison and cape and water buff. Solids usually shoot through all buff.
You are right, the word vintage is often used incorrectly. However it doesn’t mean something is old, vintage simply refers to when it was made, so my Miroku 1886 is a 2021 vintage. Old guns are just old guns till they are old enough to have antique status.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
463 Posts
You are right, the word vintage is often used incorrectly. However it doesn’t mean something is old, vintage simply refers to when it was made, so my Miroku 1886 is a 2021 vintage. Old guns are just old guns till they are old enough to have antique status.
Pics of said 2021 Miroku 1886?? 😁
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,912 Posts
I was thinking that XMP 5477 was the name of a much older version of the powder. Either the Israeli-made stuff that hasn’t been in the States for decades, or an even older source (quite possibly GD, as Darkker mentions). All of that pre-dates both Hodgy’s and Western Powder’s ownership of the Accurate name.

In short, as Darkker said, DO NOT use Accurate 5744 where data specifies XMP-5744. Cautiously start at minimum and work loads if you choose, but seriously, just get a load manual with newer data.
 
21 - 31 of 31 Posts
Top