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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hello from Scotland~

I have been reading some articles about the great "Bell" Elephant hunter. In one he spoke of his love of short action, light weight bolt action rifles in what most would consider "small bore" 6.5 and 7mm !

Long solid bullets in both calibres proved very effective for Brain shooting pachyderms ! He favoured short actions for there speed of cycling the all important next round.

I do not know what if any restrictions are placed on present day elephant shooting regarding minimum calibres.And it not really relevant as i shall never be able to afford to hunt Elephants.
But following Bells formula if available in his "hay-day" a .308 loaded with Barnes 220 grain solid bullets would be just the ticket ???

Englander
 

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This combination did work on elephant, albeit in the .30-06 with 220's. Remember that the .308 of today largely provides the ballistics of the .30-06 circa The Great War. As I understand it, the conditions under which W.D.M. Bell hunted jumbo are a thing of the past. Combined with his obviously superior shooting skills, such a combination would have worked well. But for today's conditions and with the vast majority of hunters, myself thoroughly included, something like the .458 is much more appropriate.

Another great hunter/writer that used the .30-06 extensively for a great deal of dangerous African game was Stewart Edward White. He thought the Model 1903 Springfield '06 was just splendid for lion. His several books on Africa are a great read.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Bill good to hear from you as always i know balistically the 06 beats the 08 when it comes to heavier bullets.

Bell made it clear he valued a fast lock time. Long actions could have ment the difference between life and death.

The humble 7.62 x 39 seems to work for the poachers !

Englander
 

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It apparently works pretty well for legal hunters as well. I've heard many good things when quality ammo is used. Many compare it in effect to a semi-auto .30-30 when it comes to deer. Since here in Pennsylvania semi-auto rifles are illegal for any hunting, I've seen nothing firsthand. But if I owned a Kalashnikov I'd more than likely try a CZ bolt-action in the same cartridge for deer hunting. It would probably make a super turkey gun with cast loads too.
 

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Bill -

I have the CZ Model 527 you speak of, and it is a wonderful deer rifle. Commercial ammo is held to 44,000 CUP, but the SAAMI specs are for 52,000. Handloads are considerably more effective, and one can easily drive a 125 gr. spitzer to 2600 fps in this little bolt gun. Comes with a fine adjustable single set trigger that is a big help with a gun this light.

7.62X39 brass is quite heavy for its capacity and hence as strong as brass gets. Handloading is frugal and fun.

For varmints it handles 85 and 100 gr .312 pistol bullets up to 2850 fps, and the fast spinning, thin jacketed hollow points are devastating.

With these, you can turn a 2X4 sideways and cut it in half with 1 shot...not even an '06 can do that!

With an 18.5 inch bbl and a weight of 5 pounds you are good for open woods and field shots up to 150 yards, same as the 30-30 with better trajectory.

Its certainly no elephant gun, but those old 6.5s really were. Human or elephant brain tissue does not need to be damaged much to induce death, and even a bad shot will take out the animals balance sensors, much like a black jack will take down a human. The price we both pay for "smart" brains.

This is NOT true of the large cats, and head shots on them are downright dangerous. Jack Corbett, in his wonderful book, "Man Eaters of Kumaon", recounts the terrifying results obtained by shooting a Bengal Tiger up the right nostrel with a 500 Nitro at point blank range on the dark side of dusk. Even though there were skull fragments and brain tissue on the ground, the animal was merely enraged and went on a rampage that lasted into the next day. "Don't try this at home..."
 

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I think this has a lot to do with what the occasional hunter compared to the steady hunter of a particualar game, consders to be sufficient for that hunted animal. Guys that get to hunt Elk once in a lifetime consider completley different cartridges mandatory compared to those who get to persue them two or so weeks a year every year. The local elk hunter may well consider a .270 to be completely adequate, while the visitor may require a 300 Weatherby, at a minimum, to consider himself amply armed. If you can shoot, and are familiar with your quarry, almost anything is possible. I would take the light guns to be risky with Elephant, but I do not posses the skill of Bell and lack his experience with the beast. There are more and more hunters shooting deer with .22 caliber rifles. The modern projectiles and cartridges are certainly up to the task, but is the "average" modern rifleman? In the hands of a good rifleman, and ethical hunter, a 22 centerfire is adequate to take midsized game at ranges farther than most of should shoot at it. Should all hunters use them? I would bet that a heavy 22 solid would be deadly even on elephant with the right person behind the rifle. Fred Bear killed them with a bow didn't he?

On the 7.62x39. Has anyone tried on in the Ruger 77
? I saw one at the range a week or two ago, and it looked like a good knockin' around rifle in the stainless version.
 

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Didn't Ruger discontinue the bolt action 7.62 Commie Short?
If not, great. I'd certainly prefer one to the CZ. I'm not too hot for set triggers.
 

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Bill -

The CZ 527 can be fired with or without setting the trigger, and you can fully adjust the unset trigger to any practical pull you want.

Anyway, the CZ 527 is now only available in .223, so its a moot point. I chipped the bolt face on my first one, handloading at the range and talking at the same time (DUH!). I confessed my sin, and they sent me another, no charge.

CZ also made a .458/.458 Win mag double, in over and under configuration, and they sold me their last one for $1750. It is no longer made, and the sold FIVE in the US.

Finally, I acquired a CZ Model 75 BD new for $385, with one 15 and one 10 shot magazine. It is so reliable and accurate that I retired my SIG 229.

I like to think of myself as a good American, and I have my Rugers, Winchesters, Savages, Marlins, Bushmasters, H&Rs and Remingtons.

Sometimes that exchange rate is just too tempting, even with the import duties...
 

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Loader,

I agree with you on the CZ-75. They're a very nice pistol, which is something coming froma dedicated revolver man like myself. In my area you can get the same deal for about $350, $450 with night sights.

Beyond the set trigger, wood quality and wood-to-metal fit on the CZ rifles I've examined haven't been very impressive. In fact the last I handled, a bolt-action .458, had big gaps around the safety. They probably shoot well but in my opinion, pretty they ain't.
 

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Bill -

I agree completely about CZ rifles appearence wise.Even my big double, which is hand fitted but still ugly, has a design flaw - when you drop in 2 458s and snap it shut, its ready to FIRE. You must put on SAFE.

I guess if you are really in a hurry, this is a good feature, but it makes me sweat. I'd rather select FIRE myself, even in the unlikely event that some critter wanted to run me down...
 

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Hi, Gents:
Do you mean you can't engage the safety when the action is open? Or do you want an automatic safety?

The automatic safety was briefly popular back when the sun never set on the Union Jack and the double rifle ruled the game fields of Africa and India. Too many bwanas and sahibs got chewed, gored and stomped when they forgot the safety after a reload. My shotgun has one and while only a few clay pigeons got away on account of my forgetfulness, the thought of an automatic safety in a dangerous situation makes my hair stand on end. That applies to doubled up safeties like cross-bolts on hammer guns too.

Bye
Jack
 

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YIPES! CZ did it right!!

This CZ double has some other very interesting features, including a .458 diameter freebore long enough to allow me to drop a 500 gr hornady down the barrels, followed by a sized case, with .125" to spare. Still, uncompressed AA2230 loads with this bullet clock 2250 fps from 22 inch barrels. Pressure is moderate to low.

One can easily cut cannelures .30 from the bullet base and go to 2375 fps with no pressure problems.
In place of the morning cup of coffee, you can go to 600 grain Hawks and clock 2130 fps. Both loads exceeed 6000 FP, and will drill a playing card at 40 paces.

Pretty specialized in its application, but tough to beat as a stopper.

The gun is discontinued after a short run, and only 5 were sold in the US. Any idea what it might be worth?
 

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FWIW: The Hawk bullets fellow sent me some sample 6.5s for the Mannlicher-Shoenauer (the type that Bell made famous), and chuckled that those darn things go as deep or deeper than most "african" magnums in his penetration tests. Hard to believe these gents experiences, given the M-S's 30-30 ballistics!
 

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CharlieZ -

For a combination of expansion AND penetration, the Hawk line is very hard to beat. There is definitely something to their use of soft, pure copper in place is guilding material and they seem to refuse to come apart, even at very high velocities fired into my sand bullet trap.
 

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Gents, All though I've been to Africa a few times for Uncle Sam and seen the big 5 I haven't the oportunity to hunt there. I've seen the cross section of an elephants skull and the bone around the brain was about 6-12" thick!!!(if memory is correct 16yrs ago) Back in Kenya 86' had a loin kill a zebra 300m out of camp at night. We only had 5.56 with M193 ball (55gr FMJ) not very comforting. Later on a hilltop at dusk had 5 elephants come out of the ravine 50m away and since it was an exercise, only had blanks in the rifles! Second trip found me in Ethiopia with an M4 and M9 with ball and Henyas running through camp at night. Last trip to Kenya I'm an old Master Sargeant now and they leave me alone when I carry an M14 (7.62x51 aka 308)with 147gr FMJ. Tried locating some of the new (then) Federal 165 Partictions or Trophy Bonded Bear Claws. This time I see Rhino, Cape Buffalo, Loin and Leaprod and don't have the 14 with me, only my Berretta M9! Lion at 25 feet raises the pucker factor! She just laid there in the sun as we walked by. During Airborne operations they had to chase the elephants off of the drop zone prior to drop. Also as far as the 7.62x39 the poachers don't use single shots. They keep shooting til the animal drops. Sorry for the long story.

De Opperesso Liber
 
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