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  #21  
Old 09-23-2015, 05:05 PM
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I have two Remington 700's that are on the hit list for the XMP Trigger Recall and Four more that are not. I'm not exactly sure what I am supposed to be doing. Personally I object to the concept of throwing my Firearms into cheap cardboard boxes with no instructions on how to package other than take them to UPS....here's your shipping label(I got better instructions on how a $40 video card had to be packaged to be mailed). Now I believe that because I did not send the two recall rifles, that nothing will be done anyway. So in essence I guess I am asking whats the end result that you are hoping to achieve. You may PM me if you do not wish to respond in the Forum.

Last edited by langss; 09-23-2015 at 05:21 PM.
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  #22  
Old 09-23-2015, 06:10 PM
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langss--

What I have to say should be said in public because you illustrate one of my three objections. Confusion reigns in the gun world and nobody knows what to do about what Remington triggers. If nothing is done, the guns are still dangerous and more confusion is piled on top of an already complicated situation and suddenly, because nobody knew, the entire paradigm of firearms life spans are changed because its cheaper that way and nobody said a word. I decided to say about 80,000 words in "Unsafe by Design" and it hit a nerve.

Your two Model 700s with the 'recall triggers' have XMP triggers made during a time the workers slobbered on too much 'holdem goop'. That goop, under a certain range of temperatures, is strong enough to make the safety lever PULL the top of the trigger which fires the rifle. FSR results. I said in my book that anything that can be repaired with stuff bought from the auto parts store should be an advisory (to clean your trigger with a certain anti-goop) and not a national re-call because it confuses things terribly when a new trigger is said to cure an old problem and now the new trigger is being recalled but not the old one??. What sense does that make?

What triggers have the other three rifles got in them? A grooved face means 'Walker'. A slick silvery face is 'X Mark Pro'.

To illustrate the little details that are done maybe by accident or maybe by design, but are placed to create confusion and non-participation, please check out this web page. Remington Trigger Class Action Settlement
Look at the two triggers shown that are supposed to tell shooters what trigger they have in their rifles.
Can you tell them apart? How many silver colored Walker triggers have you seen? If you're a shooter than wants to do the right thing but sure would rather not send his gun off by brown truck, and you go to that page and see a silver trigger instead of black (as 99% are), will you be anxious to return your rifle, or just glad yours is not 'one of the bad ones'?
I wrote and complained of that confusing picture but they're still up.
They told the judge roughly 7,000 responses out of 7.8 million rifles means they're making gun safer and need to get paid $12.5 Million for getting it done. I had to object to it and I urge all to read my objections and be familiar with the case. I'll be speaking (already have) on the record as part of the class of shooters that have affected rifles. I'm testifying as the only witness connected to actual shooters. Everybody else is a lawyer, engineer, metallurgist or factory rep.. I'm the guy that looks at the guns being used in the field and tells the court what actual wear looks like. (Don't expect Remington to tell what they see...or share it.)

Here is a brand new trigger sent from Remington by their lawyer by Fed X to me. I took microscopic pictures when new and at hundred pull intervals. I quit at 300 pulls with photos at three AM because the report was due by eight.

This XMP trigger is NOT worn out. But it is 'degraded' in geometry in a fashion that shows accelerated wear. I have examined other, older, more used XMP triggers that had started to lighten their own trigger pulls. That is a danger sign of great magnitude and shows the (MIM) material Walker himself argued against is failing just like he predicted. I don't think that should be ignored and an offer of putting 7 more million of them on the market can not be a good decision.
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OBJECTION to proposed Remington-Walker Class action-clipboard01.jpg  
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  #23  
Old 09-23-2015, 07:22 PM
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Thank you for your reply. I will have to get back to you on what the Triggers look like. I also have an Xp100....LOL....
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  #24  
Old 09-23-2015, 08:37 PM
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Kind of conversational, but I'll toss it in, not trying to sway the emphasis of the conversation. For 25+ years, I have recommended to all of my M700 buyers that they replace the trigger. About 50% have taken me up, and I've done the work at cost. Most of the time, I have put in Timney's, whether you're high on them or not, they are a vast improvement and my experience with them has been quite positive. My son-in-law got a M700 that had the XMP trigger. I didn't suggest to him--simply replaced it. Then I closely studied the removed XMP. The flaws were obvious! The only thing I can honestly say is "piece of junk", and certainly not just mechanically.

I'm glad that this matter is hopefully finally being brought to a head! I've nothing against Remington in general, but what they have gotten away with for umptine years regarding this trigger/safety is truly criminal. My observations suggest that no more than 10% of the shooting public was knowledgeable regarding this long term trigger default. Most of us gun mechanics were, but attempting to sell it to Big Green believers was a wasted effort! "Don't confuse me with facts! My mind is made up".

Hope I didn't get too far off topic here.
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  #25  
Old 09-24-2015, 03:44 AM
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This just rifles and not shotguns like the 870..?
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  #26  
Old 09-24-2015, 05:10 AM
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roboink-- The RCFC (Remington Common Fire Control) has their own defects but are an entirely different trigger mechanism. My book covers them, too.
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  #27  
Old 09-24-2015, 06:14 AM
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Balloney

The entire case is Baloney. No-one has been able to repeat the misfire claimed. No-one. The existing triggers are just as safe as the replacements. A maladjusted trigger, one that has been tampered with can and will fire unexpectedly however. Any of them.

The law suit was by a woman who accidentally fired her rifle and killed her son through the trailer wall. She violated the first rule of pointing the rifle down while unloading, and never at possible unsafe direction. She violated the second rule by not unloading her rifle before entering the trailer. I learned both of these rules before I was ten years old. Furthermore, the rifle was ill kept and rusty. However even so, no-one was able to repeat the misfire on that rifle!

I have two of the "suspect" rifles and have had them for decades. They are clean and taken care of. I have tried to make them fire on safe and when switching back and forth between safe and fire. Neither will do so. I check this before every hunt.

I was contacted and advised to send my rifles in for a new trigger. Was told to remove the scope and rings first. They will send shipping box and UPS label. I got one and the box is junk. Just an empty box.

Decided not to. Don't mess with something that is not broken. The whole thing is bogus.

Last edited by frhunter13; 09-24-2015 at 06:16 AM. Reason: Added
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  #28  
Old 09-24-2015, 06:41 AM
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frhunter13--- It's easy to duplicate it, all you need is an understanding of how it works to see how it fails.

This case has nothing whatsoever to do with the Barber case (which you have totally wrong). This case is entirely different, in a different court for a different purpose. The information is there to read.

This case is sending no boxes and nobody has advised you of anything unless you contacted them.

Your 'test' are meaningless.

Edit to add-- You said "A maladjusted trigger, one that has been tampered with can and will fire unexpectedly however. Any of them.

You're exactly right. Precisely right. The Walker trigger, by design can adjust itself for one shot and then go back to normal. Please study the patent drawings and do a google search on "Remington Explanation" you'll find it at academia.edu. See how the Walker can adjust itself and you'll see what the case is about.
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Last edited by JBelk; 09-24-2015 at 07:55 AM.
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  #29  
Old 09-24-2015, 10:25 AM
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OK, sorry to mix the cases but the other one is the first. Also my test is quite adequate to convince me the law suits are bogus. I have had Remington rifles for over 40 years now, with none EVER misfiring. Even the older ones that required the safety be off before unloading. And as I said it is a well understood safety procedure to NEVER point your rifle in an unsafe direction for the very reason that Gremilins exist (well anyway you know what I mean.) What causes the Walker type to POSSIBLY misfire is to pack the trigger with mud. Amazingly though, the M10 which went through Vietnam with the Walker type trigger did NOT exemplify this failure. And as far as I have read, the fault has NOT been duplicated WITHOUT packing the trigger with mud or mal-adjusting it. The M10 Sniper rifle was worshiped in Viet Nam as a highly reliable tool.

Too bad I was not on this jury. And I guess the crappy shipping box I have that the lawyers sent me from the class action suit is just a figment of my imagination. Yes I contacted them after receiving an email describing the class action suit.

What I suggest is for people to have an open mind a research this issue. Also research the Remington rebuttals and statements. Do not simply believe the lawyers nay-saying the triggers.
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  #30  
Old 09-24-2015, 10:35 AM
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frhunter13--

The First ones were in 1947. There has been no jury on the Barber case or the class. THIS class has sent no emails or notifications, only advertisements to contact them. Confusion of the facts and the need for education is one of my three objections....or did you not read it?
http://remingtonfirearmsclassactionsettlement.com/

You are still confusing suits that have nothing to do with what you're talking about.

I have demonstrated Walker failures in front of juries for more than 20 years. It's easy to do WHEN YOU KNOW the trigger. Housewives understand it. My paper has been out for 5 years and three depositions and it still stands. Read it and understand it and you'll see why even Remington in their plant have failures and they knew why in 1947.

This is an undeniable truth----There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun.

I think your mistake, and it's a very common one, is that since the Walker trigger adjustment screws are in the same location as Timney and others that the triggers operate the same. They do NOT. The Walker is a patented, unique design that is much different than other over-ride or negative angle sear triggering systems.

Any 'mud' that totals .007 of an inch can cause the Walker to fail. Many sand grains are that large so are seeds, unburned powder grains, scraps of brass cartridge rim and coagulated WD-40.

Last edited by JBelk; 09-24-2015 at 11:06 AM.
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  #31  
Old 09-24-2015, 11:18 AM
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This is an undeniable truth----There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun.[/QUOTE]

In that case I guess even a paper target is an unsafe direction. I am beginning to think there is a closed mind on the other side of this, and a gun hating lawyer as well. You are also ignoring the M10, as I expect is the standard procedure for a lawyer. Ignore all evidence against. There are millions upon millions of Remington rifles out there in the last seven decades. We would be getting a non stop litany of of people with mis-firing rifles if what you say is true.

I can make one fire on safe also if I have a mind to, and a tool to do it with. That is not the point.

By the way, I received a custom Mauser 458 Magnum. I took it off safe and it fired, down target range. Ouch, but no one injured. I discovered the Timney trigger was set akilter and re-adjusted and re-aligned it. No more problems.
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  #32  
Old 09-24-2015, 11:40 AM
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frhunter13--
The "non-stop litany" started in the late '40s. I only know of seven years of written customer complaints. The rest (are said to) have been destroyed. Of those ten thousand plus complaints, there are several thousands of Fire on Safety Release and Fire on Bolt Close and Fire on Bolt Open and Jar Offs. The story is not that the guns will fire without the trigger being pulled. They DO. The factory even told the workers at the test benches to be SURE to wear your padded glove in case it fires on bolt close. The story is why haven't you heard of it before now? Be very curious about that. There is a very specific reason you're ignorant of the Remington Walker problem and also a reason why you blame lawyers...which I am not.

Now, please educate yourself by reading the why the Walker is DIFFERENT than the Timney and why misadjusting both causes failures but one has an 'adjustment' you don't control, can't see and certainly can't predict. The defect is in your trigger and you don't know when it'll fail, all you know is that it didn't fail the last test.
Learn FIRST and then I'll answer more questions. I highly recommend my book, "Unsafe by Design" that has you sitting proudly in the bock row of a gunsmithing lecture. You might find it entertaining to see yourself and your doubts and questions. There are two chapters on over-ride triggers and two more pretty much Remington-centric and Walker specific.

Walker himself saw the defect and wrote about it 68 years ago. He even recommended at least two solutions to it.

Shameless commercial plug-- http://www.amazon.com/unSafe-Design-...dp/0692343504/

Last edited by JBelk; 09-25-2015 at 06:20 AM.
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  #33  
Old 09-24-2015, 11:49 AM
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I continue to be amazed at the opinions of some people who have owned 1, 2 or a dozen M700 rifles without incident that claim there is absolutely not a problem with the other 5,000,000 rifles.
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  #34  
Old 09-24-2015, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tnhunter View Post
I continue to be amazed at the opinions of some people who have owned 1, 2 or a dozen M700 rifles without incident that claim there is absolutely not a problem with the other 5,000,000 rifles.
I'm not. I believe the inverse of this is quite natural and healthy. Unlike herd animals who follow the pack and react only to those around them I'd like to think intelligent people behave a bit more independently. Let's just dismiss all of Jack's technical expertise and depth on this subject for a minute and consider that not everybody is going to line up and drink the Kool-Aid. That some are going to fall back and think this through before going ahead. It's more or less a self-preservation reflex and one based on the fact that without first hand experience humans should have some degree of reluctance. If a guy has shot and owned a bunch of these guns without experiencing the trigger failure and knows others who haven't either, then why would he automatically cross over. The answer then comes from research and trusting the source material to convince you that a problem does exist beyond your realm of experience. If it was as easy as proclaiming a defect to the public and courts then you wouldn't need Jack Belk out front clearing the brush and tracking.

Regards
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  #35  
Old 09-24-2015, 12:46 PM
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If we grew up never hearing of any plane crash except those caused by pilot error and it was 'common knowledge' airplanes were infallible but for the idiot driving it.....who would doubt it? If its not reported and most people deny it, it seems like fact. Who's seen a plane crash that a pilot wasn't in it? He must be at fault. Especially if the rule is 'keep the plane on the ground'. (Who made that rule?)

BUT, springs are just like gravity and if not held, will operate. All that's needed is to see the linkage that keeps the spring from working. When part of that linkage is fallible, it makes the whole thing fallible. Here is the strip of steel at the top rear corner of the trigger that keeps a rifle from firing. It measures .188 x .021". That part has to be under the sear when the bolt closes and when the safety is removed. If that is not reliable, the rifle is unsafe.
The connector is "flexibly mounted" to the trigger. It can flop around. It can be held from its proper position by trash. It's geometry can be changed by debris. It can be displaced while the safety is on. The connector has that little strip of sear contact on it. It HAS to be in the right place at the right time. IF the connector always returned correctly, there would be no FSR. Since there are thousands of FSRs, it means the connector was somehow AWOL.

The fact that your airplane hasn't crashed is not proof they don't.
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  #36  
Old 09-24-2015, 12:59 PM
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We old pilots are known to say something about "iffy" flying conditions, it goes like this "Takeoffs are optional, while landings are mandatory".

Learning to fly nearly 40 years ago taught me a couple things, one of which is that stacking the odds in one's favor is never a bad thing.
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  #37  
Old 09-24-2015, 01:13 PM
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Ok, I am skeptical but not block headed. I never pull a gun up the tree with me while loaded. I never point it at something or someone (well unless I intend to shoot it or them). The only other time I had one go off accidentally was my own fault and it was pointed at the ground. A Browning shotgun, a ten year old walking with my finger on the trigger and the safety off. But I NEVER claimed that was the gun's fault. My bad as the user all the way, as I figure most all of these claims are too. The ones that end up in court are the ones where someone got shot. Then it's "Oh the gun just went off all by it self! Isn't that possible??????????" And then a pile of lawyers and experts show it to be not only possible but certain.
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  #38  
Old 09-24-2015, 01:24 PM
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Ok, I am skeptical but not block headed. That's a great start, but you need to be a little block headed to fit will in the back row.

I never pull a gun up the tree with me while loaded. ME neither!!
I never point it at something or someone (well unless I intend to shoot it or them). Same here
The only other time I had one go off accidentally was my own fault and it was pointed at the ground. Mine was a squirrel nest
A Browning shotgun, a ten year old walking with my finger on the trigger and the safety off. But I NEVER claimed that was the gun's fault. My Savage-Fox Model B went off with the safety on. Broken part.
My bad as the user all the way, as I figure most all of these claims are too. About 99% are user caused. The ones that end up in court are the ones where someone got shot. It cost about a hundred grand to go to court. Only when someone is maimed or killed it worthwhile to a lawyer that works on contigency.
Then it's "Oh the gun just went off all by it self! Isn't that possible??????????" Sometimes it is. With well designed guns, it's impossible.
And then a pile of lawyers and experts show it to be not only possible but certain.Never certain about anything. The gun is designed to fire with the safety off and the trigger pulled. Did it?
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  #39  
Old 09-24-2015, 06:29 PM
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So; I thought I understood way back in the beginning of the post but got a little confused along the way; helped by the arguement.
I am a "better safe than sorry" type. I have a Remington 700 Titanium, purchased about 15 or 20 years ago. I assume it has the Walker trigger. Is that correct?
Also I think I heard that I have two options: Have Remington put in a trigger that will wear out or buy an aftermarket trigger. Is that also correct?
If so, this is easy, buy an aftermarket trigger for my favorite hunting rifle.
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  #40  
Old 09-24-2015, 07:10 PM
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Tundraman--

Look at the trigger to see if the face of the finger part is grooved. If so, it's a Walker. Slick trigger is the XMP. Replace with an XMP or an aftermarket are the only two choices right now.
I would be interested to know if that 700 Titanium has a silver colored but grooved trigger. I found a .220 700SSV with a shiny Walker but that's the only one so-far. Anybody else got a silver Walker?
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