OBJECTION to proposed Remington-Walker Class action - Page 3 - Shooters Forum
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  #41  
Old 09-24-2015, 06:26 PM
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Remngton Triggers


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Don't know how I have pulled this off, but right now I own 5 Remington 700's, 1 721, 1 722, one Model 7, one Model 40-x and I have never had a trigger that I thought was unsafe as I have never had an accident with one of them.

One 700 and the 40-x have been with me at least 40 years which should tell you that I am getting pretty old. In that 40 years I have had at least 5 other Model 700's, one more Model 7, one Model 660, and one more 722. Never had a safety/trigger accident with any of them. Am I just lucky, or has Remington occasionally built a good product.

Only 2 times have I experienced a trigger accident. The worst was a really stupid action by me inside the house with my Savage 116. I was trying to work on the hard to push safety and pulled the trigger when I had not examined the gun to notice that it did have cartridges in the magazine. I had pushed one into the chamber and it went BOOM. I would love to blame Savage, but I was stupider than I have ever been. Maybe I should get one of those good lawyers who could find a way to blame it on Savage.

My other trigger accident occurred in a really cute custom build Venezuelan Mauser that I had taken in a trade long back before I developed an ability to custom build my own Mausers. The safety did not reblock the firing pin after if it was released and the trigger not pulled. As a result, that gun went BOOM even though the safety had been put back in the on position. Now that I have built about 25-30 nice Mausers, I still regret selling that one to another Mauser expert. No wonder he wanted to buy that little cutey pie so much. Again, I don't feel like I should blame the trigger/safety because I should have found the problem and learned how to fix it before I allowed my son to hunt with it. We were very lucky.

Last edited by butchrx; 09-24-2015 at 06:29 PM.
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  #42  
Old 09-24-2015, 06:33 PM
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Butchrx-- Your rifles all have a design defect in them. The fact that it hasn't yet failed doesn't change the fact that it IS there. Look at the design and you'll see the 'inner trigger', the connector, is run by a spring. Yours has worked every time. That's good. Some don't.
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  #43  
Old 09-24-2015, 08:03 PM
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Rem Trigger Recall

Thanks to all invovled in this conversation. I own at least 2 dozen Remingtons, 721, 722, 725, 700. For the first time, after reading this thread, I got my one 700 Mag registered. I had tried, on my own, to get a responce from Remington but nothing or got booted to the Remington Razor site.
My Rem 700 took a 6x5 elk just last fall and there were no signs of trouble until this fall when I checked the chamber and upon opening and closing the bolt to check and see if it was loaded, which it wasnt, it went off! I ll make it clear the trigger went off on an empty chamber soly by closing the bolt or if in the safe position when moved to Fire it went off on an empty chamber. Holy **** that scared me! Now my complete collection is in question!
So far only one rifle displayes this problem of going off when the bolt is closed but where do I stand? The Remington site suggests, by the questions asked when you fill out a replacement form, only tbe triggers going off when closing the bolt are covered for replacement. Is this assumption True!
What should I consider doing?
Thanks Montana Guy!
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  #44  
Old 09-24-2015, 09:31 PM
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It is a sad fact, but Mr. JBelk shouldn't have to argue this with anyone! If one will simply take one of the M700 triggers--even the XMP--and dissect it--don't be afraid of a magnifying glass--you'll see the potential faults plain as day--or you are Big Green blind. It is not rocket science! The faults are obvious! Study the mechanics and it is plain to see the potential! On the XMP, also, look into the metallurgy, not to mention it's obvious physical faults. Jeez guys, just look, then you won't argue!

I admit that I have never been able to get one to fail buy just normal cycling, but the potential is so obvious, necessitating so little to cause it, it is frightening! Just look!

The basic analogy that my plane hasn't crashed, hence planes don't crash--is pretty weak!

Last edited by moosehunt; 09-24-2015 at 09:42 PM.
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  #45  
Old 09-25-2015, 02:14 AM
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Remington 700 Walker trigger fix 2015/09/25


JBelk, I had noticed many years ago that the Walker Remington 700 triggers "often" vary their trigger pull weight by roughly a half pound from the pull weight when you cycle (open then close) the bolt, to the pull weight when you cycle the bolt THEN engage and then disengage the safety. That difference in pull weight tells something is changing that shouldn't!

I had replaced several of the Walker style and a couple X-Mark Pro Remington 700 triggers and have several of each laying around. I disassembled one of the Walker triggers this evening and found that even though the over-travel adjustment screw was set to the bare minimum of over-travel motion and the trigger spring was adjusted with plenty enough tension to fully return the trigger after releasing the sear, the connector "floated" enough to vary the pull weight and sear engagement considerably, depending on the "mode" of operation used to make the sear engagement.

While I STRONGLY suggest that no one else try this, as it may very well create a DANGEROUS condition, I've carefully epoxied the connector to the trigger in this particular Walker Remington 700 trigger assembly. I intend to readjust the sear engagement, over-travel adjustment and trigger spring tension to proper setting and then test the trigger assembly function for the next several weeks. If it proves to be a "possible" fix for the problem, I"ll silver solder the connector to a trigger in a different Walker trigger assembly and continue testing. I"ll let you know my test observations.
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  #46  
Old 09-25-2015, 03:35 AM
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You are right about variable trigger pulls. Some Walkers can vary by a pound from pull to pull. That means the sear overlap is different from pull to pull. Different is very bad.

WATCH OUT! You're about to make a Walker more dangerous! I cover this in my book, there is a second step that is MOST important and you need a precision grinder to do it. The angle at the back of the connector MUST be ground off accurately so the rear of the connector is 90 degrees BUT the point of 'break' remains the same. The new corner has to be in the same location as the old one.

Also-- Silver solder takes the heat-treat from the connector and makes it useless.

I have been repairing Walker triggers since 1969 and as long as the angle is taken off without altering the point of break, the triggers or as safe as any other solid trigger gun and last a long time. Those with the angle still on them will break the epoxy bond and you have a flopping connector with scraps of stuff floating around. Do it right and the trigger is as good as any other.
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OBJECTION to proposed Remington-Walker Class action-walker-660-repair-011a.jpg  
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  #47  
Old 09-25-2015, 04:02 AM
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Montana guy--
Every Walker trigger has the capability of firing without the trigger being pulled. The defect is part of the design. It is not a matter of the trigger 'going bad' or 'suddenly starting to fail'. All Walkers can fail at any time without notice or warning and then it can go right back to operating perfectly and may work perfectly the rest of it's life. It depends on a tiny flake of steel that weighs about 20 grains that is inside the trigger and being operated by a small spring in a dirty environment subject to trash, debris and lots of recoil. I have a slow speed video of a Walker trigger cut-a-way actually firing. The connector and trigger separate and clap together four times during recoil. Debris caught between the two parts alter the sear engagement which is the most important connection in any rifle. There's a picture of it above.

What is most important is to get the language right and agree on what is 'defective' or 'unsafe'. There are two criteria widely recognized and understood to be "bad".

No gun should shoot without the trigger being pulled.
No gun should be capable of being shot with the manual safety engaged.

Any gun that does either is "unsafe by design".

The Ten Commandments of Gun Safety were written by Remington to transfer 'accidents' to the shooter and relieve the the gun makers of liability. It has worked great! Just read the 'rules' and see how they left the guns out of it and put all the responsibility on the shooter. Of course the Ten Commandments have saved many, many lives and I'm all in favor, but the Ten Commandments shouldn't be an 'out' for dangerous guns.
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  #48  
Old 09-25-2015, 05:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
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You are right about variable trigger pulls. Some Walkers can vary by a pound from pull to pull. That means the sear overlap is different from pull to pull. Different is very bad.

WATCH OUT! You're about to make a Walker more dangerous! I cover this in my book, there is a second step that is MOST important and you need a precision grinder to do it. The angle at the back of the connector MUST be ground off accurately so the rear of the connector is 90 degrees BUT the point of 'break' remains the same. The new corner has to be in the same location as the old one.

Also-- Silver solder takes the heat-treat from the connector and makes it useless.

I have been repairing Walker triggers since 1969 and as long as the angle is taken off without altering the point of break, the triggers or as safe as any other solid trigger gun and last a long time. Those with the angle still on them will break the epoxy bond and you have a flopping connector with scraps of stuff floating around. Do it right and the trigger is as good as any other.
Very nice! I too recut the sear engagement angle square. In fact your repair looks nearly identical to mine. :-) The only difference I can see is at the top and bottom of the trigger where the disconnect sits, I ground a very small, shallow groove in the trigger and a mating one ine the disconnect. The mating shallow grooves provide a mechanical lock with the JB Weld Steel epoxy which more positively holds the disconnect in place. I'll try to attach a photo.
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OBJECTION to proposed Remington-Walker Class action-image.jpg  

Last edited by SMK-1000plus; 09-25-2015 at 05:17 AM. Reason: Adding photo
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  #49  
Old 09-25-2015, 05:25 AM
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Grooves in trigger/disconnect

The set of grooves at the top is clearly visible in the photo. There is also another set of grooves not visible, at the bottom side of the trigger/disconnect assembly. I too reground the sear engagement portion of the disconnect to 90 degrees. It seemed logical.
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  #50  
Old 09-25-2015, 05:51 AM
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Logic?! Who uses that old fashioned stuff anymore?

Also cut a portion of the trigger away so the sear can drop a little further. High Speed movies of the trigger working shows the sear 'bouncing' to the limit of the sear notch downward as the cocking piece ricochets off the angled rear end of the sear.

Notches and keys are always good. I have a diamond burr for the air grinder that I scar up the trigger and connector with and then hose both parts with brake clean before the JB Weld.
By cutting the rear angle off it means all the stress on the epoxy is in compression by the sear with the entire trigger face an effective adhesive surface without stress on it. JB/Accragel/Glas/Conap/Gorilla and other quality epoxies are extremely well qualified to hold the stresses and solvents within the rifle.

I've testified to my Walker trigger repairs for 22 years but Remington, to my knowledge, has never tested a repaired trigger at all. If the judge ask, I'll tell him a repair seems a good option but should be tested and if a repair is as good as a new steel trigger why not have it as an option? Its cheaper for Remington and easier for the gun owner. Send a box of repaired triggers to every authorized repair station or qualified gunsmith and have the triggers repaired by your guy instead of sending your guns to New York.

If the goal is safer guns it has to be easy, otherwise people wont bother.
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  #51  
Old 09-25-2015, 06:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
If the goal is safer guns it has to be easy, otherwise people wont bother.
Quite right. We'll see whether making these defective designs safer is the actual goal, or not...
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  #52  
Old 09-25-2015, 06:28 AM
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Jack I pretty much agree with you on this But. Even though you can successfully repair a trigger, one that you have proven is defective by design you'll have a hard time selling this to a company and its legal advisors not to mention insurers and their legal teams. I'm no legal expert here but have seen first hand how less lethal defects are handled by several boat builders and part suppliers.

My guess is that once you have condemned a product as design defective and not materials or labor defective you have a real problem flipping the image around. There are thousands and thousands of defective designs that went to an early grave and stayed there. As you have so thoroughly explained these triggers can be restored and reconfigured to safe workable mechanisms but only by careful attention to details and skilled proficiency. Remington has already been burned big time on this trigger and I would bet their legal and insurance underwriters are not about to advise having factory help rebuild these units. Not if there is even a remote chance that negligence or sloppy ill-qualified workmanship could allow another defective trigger out the door.

Even if they sub it out or create an elite team of mechanics to rebuild these triggers the fact is in the publics mind they are re-working a defective design --doesn't sell well. However I could see Remington installing or having dealers install another aftermarket trigger module, a trigger designed and made by another company -- one with plenty of liability coverage. To the legal and insurers mind this is a smart move to spread liability exposure out and away from the parent company and still be perceived as coming to assistance of their customers.

I honestly have no true insight into this case but have seen other companies and their legal advisors handle similar situations with defective parts or designs where total refunds or returns were not possible and they needed to fix it or pay through the nose.

Regards
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  #53  
Old 09-25-2015, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
Logic?! Who uses that old fashioned stuff anymore?

Also cut a portion of the trigger away so the sear can drop a little further. High Speed movies of the trigger working shows the sear 'bouncing' to the limit of the sear notch downward as the cocking piece ricochets off the angled rear end of the sear.
The "bouncing" issue is great information! Thanks. I don't have access to high speed video equipment and probably would have never identified that problem on my own. I"ll be sure to releave that area of the trigger, as you have done.

I always clean all parts that I epoxy with a non-residual degreaser and/or acetone. I used a tiny diamond Dremel bit to cut the grooves in the photo and 400 grit paper to rough-up the surfaces to be epoxied.
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  #54  
Old 09-25-2015, 06:41 AM
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Oh yes Jack, since we both came up with nearly the same fix and you've already tested your fix for over/around 22 years, I feel confident enough in the repair to go ahead and perform it on my other 16 Walker Remington 700s that still have their original triggers. :-)
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  #55  
Old 09-25-2015, 07:15 AM
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Garbler--

Much of this is 'inside baseball' developed through my association with the Walker repair for 45 years and testimony about the Walker trigger for 22 years. I'm revealing public knowledge but it sure is hard to find.
Remington has tried to change the Walker trigger to a better design since 1948. The blueprint for one option was shown on TV. Little by little and case by case a super secret program came to light that showed Remington knew the connector was THE problem with the Walker, but the original Walkers were SO badly made improvements in the basic trigger had to come first because the factory was running at 100% and it was NOT going to slow down.

The "Flexibly mounted connector" (Pat #2,514,981) is the very heart and soul of the Walker-Haskel patent. Without it, the Walker trigger is nothing but a Sako with a backwards sear. To make the patent claim an outrageous corruption of Newton's Laws of Physics had to be done, but the patent investigator didn't catch it or didn't care. It sounds good, but its demonstrably impossible to stop the trigger as the sear slides off the connector, even with the over-travel of a military rifle! To think the trigger is going to stop in .015 is ludicrous. Without that 'feature', the connector is just an extraneous part that puts an 'uncertainty' in a mechanism that must be reliable. The Walker trigger with a solid steel, heat-treated trigger fitted in a late housing is a GREAT trigger. I do those on all my custom rifles. Machine the trigger from O-1 and heat-treat it like a cold chisel.

The connector is an outside vendor part delivered in big steel drums. Some bad ones are found in rifles...one thing about manufacturing, if you made one bad, you made a BUNCH! The same goes with the old M721, 722, 725, 600, 660 and XP Walkers with the housing made from folded sheet metal. At least one of those housings was drilled and tapped crooked. It was found after it has killed the owner in Houston. How many more crooked drilled folded housings are there? They can't be seen except by X-Ray (below). Connectors, however, are made of good steel and are very well heat-treated. An XMP shows more wear in 200 rounds than a Walker connector in 2,000 rounds. It would be the very easiest of manufacturing processes to grind the angled ends to an accurate square way too fast to count them. The material is already vetted. I'm sure DuPont has an adequate epoxy.

A solid trigger Walker would be approved by me and every engineer that I know has worked Remington cases. It would make the Walker a better made trigger than Timney, in my view because I don't like aluminum in trigger parts.

Remington only manufactures what is designed in house. That decree dates to just after WW-II and created the M721 and M11-48 and everything that has come afterwards. Before the War, Remington made Browning designed firearms.

They also don't like other people's ideas for improvements. I've been giving them since 1970 and not going to stop now.

My goal has been for a year to have an operating model of a 'fool proof' trigger in a Walker housing before the December hearing. I would like to show the court it IS possible and even an uneducated Red Neck can do it. (I invite others to try it.) The problems to are HARD to overcome and still have a "good" trigger desired by all. I have placed considerable limitations that makes it even harder, but to retro-fit rifles with a trigger as safe as a cocked and locked 1911 series 80 for $50 or so will certainly be worth the effort.

I have a patent that 'repairs' the 24 million Remington pumps and autos. It was a waste of money.
Attached Thumbnails
OBJECTION to proposed Remington-Walker Class action-remington-hammock-38um-bh0.75-x_0740annotated.jpg  
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Last edited by JBelk; 09-25-2015 at 07:20 AM.
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  #56  
Old 09-25-2015, 01:01 PM
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Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
langss--

What I have to say should be said in public because you illustrate one of my three objections. Confusion reigns in the gun world and nobody knows what to do about what Remington triggers. If nothing is done, the guns are still dangerous and more confusion is piled on top of an already complicated situation and suddenly, because nobody knew, the entire paradigm of firearms life spans are changed because its cheaper that way and nobody said a word. I decided to say about 80,000 words in "Unsafe by Design" and it hit a nerve.

Your two Model 700s with the 'recall triggers' have XMP triggers made during a time the workers slobbered on too much 'holdem goop'. That goop, under a certain range of temperatures, is strong enough to make the safety lever PULL the top of the trigger which fires the rifle. FSR results. I said in my book that anything that can be repaired with stuff bought from the auto parts store should be an advisory (to clean your trigger with a certain anti-goop) and not a national re-call because it confuses things terribly when a new trigger is said to cure an old problem and now the new trigger is being recalled but not the old one??. What sense does that make?

What triggers have the other three rifles got in them? A grooved face means 'Walker'. A slick silvery face is 'X Mark Pro'.

To illustrate the little details that are done maybe by accident or maybe by design, but are placed to create confusion and non-participation, please check out this web page. Remington Trigger Class Action Settlement
Look at the two triggers shown that are supposed to tell shooters what trigger they have in their rifles.
Can you tell them apart? How many silver colored Walker triggers have you seen? If you're a shooter than wants to do the right thing but sure would rather not send his gun off by brown truck, and you go to that page and see a silver trigger instead of black (as 99% are), will you be anxious to return your rifle, or just glad yours is not 'one of the bad ones'?
I wrote and complained of that confusing picture but they're still up.
They told the judge roughly 7,000 responses out of 7.8 million rifles means they're making gun safer and need to get paid $12.5 Million for getting it done. I had to object to it and I urge all to read my objections and be familiar with the case. I'll be speaking (already have) on the record as part of the class of shooters that have affected rifles. I'm testifying as the only witness connected to actual shooters. Everybody else is a lawyer, engineer, metallurgist or factory rep.. I'm the guy that looks at the guns being used in the field and tells the court what actual wear looks like. (Don't expect Remington to tell what they see...or share it.)

Here is a brand new trigger sent from Remington by their lawyer by Fed X to me. I took microscopic pictures when new and at hundred pull intervals. I quit at 300 pulls with photos at three AM because the report was due by eight.

This XMP trigger is NOT worn out. But it is 'degraded' in geometry in a fashion that shows accelerated wear. I have examined other, older, more used XMP triggers that had started to lighten their own trigger pulls. That is a danger sign of great magnitude and shows the (MIM) material Walker himself argued against is failing just like he predicted. I don't think that should be ignored and an offer of putting 7 more million of them on the market can not be a good decision.
Sorry It took so long to get back to you. Of the three rifles,(purchased in 2012/13) the two recall rifles have the smooth triggers the other one has the grooved trigger. The remaining 700's that I own I currently do not have immediate access to but were all purchased long before 2007, so I'm pretty sure they have the "Walker" Trigger. So if I understand you correctly, The two options are to go aftermarket or replace with an XMP. Is Remington offering XMP triggers to replace the Walkers.???? And if so, is this the same dog and pony show as they offerd for the XMP trigger recall. I don't know if anyone has told you, but I for one appreciate what you are doing. The XP 100 that I mentioned before(smooth trigger)was the subject of a Remington Recall and as a result is the main reason I did not want to just dump several thousand dollars worth of Firearms off at the local "UPS" office. Its a long story but enough of a reason to never do it again.
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  #57  
Old 09-25-2015, 09:57 PM
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I read this entire thread, I searched Remington triggers, lawsuits filed against Remington, defective triggers, Remington defective triggers, lawsuits involving Remington defective triggers & quite a few more. They all lead to lawsuits against Remington for defective triggers. I read until my brain hurt so I took a break.

I turn on my television, find an 'Alaska: The Last Frontier’ episode that 1st aired on 02-15-2015, Eiven, Atz Lee, Jane, & Shane hunt for deer. Atz Lee & Jane find a deer to shoot Atz Lee wants Jane to shoot it. From what I could see Jane has her entire left hand, trigger finger included wrapped around the pistol grip, she moves her thumb to move the safety to fire & the gun discharges. Jane states that her finger wasn’t on the trigger, Atz Lee, who is watching the deer not Jane’s hands, says you had your finger on the trigger, Jane meekly states that her finger wasn’t on the trigger, Atz Lee states it was, Jane apologizes for scaring off the deer.

I’m not going to swear she was shooting a Remington because I’m not an authority on Remington rifles, I’ve only owned one Remington Model Seven & still own it. I’m not shooting it until I can get it checked out by an expert.
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  #58  
Old 09-26-2015, 05:15 AM
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JBelk--For those of us who may be "mentally challenged", and also happen to own a few Remington rifles with Walker triggers, what would you suggest we do to make our guns safe?
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  #59  
Old 09-26-2015, 05:49 AM
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45saa1911-- "Checked by an expert" does nothing at all for the Model 7 trigger. It DOES have a defect within it because it has a 'flexible connector'. It's built in.

I don't own a TV and have never heard of the program you're speaking of but it would sure be cool to see that frame by frame. The assumption is, the gun can only fire with the trigger. Many have had a failure knowing the trigger was not involved but can be 'talked into believing' it was by the simple 'common knowledge' that guns only fire by way of the trigger. "You must have somehow hit the trigger" is something said by standersby, but the one handling the gun KNOWS.
Edit to add--- All over-ride triggers will fire on safe release IF the trigger is pulled when you take the safety off. Remington does it without the trigger being touched because the 'real' trigger, the connector, is not controlled by your finger.

Shuz-- At this time, there is very little you can do unless you want to put more money into your rifle and buy an aftermarket trigger for it. The replacement program hasn't even been approved by the judge yet and as noted by the first post, the replacements also have their problems. At this time, all we have is information.

Last edited by JBelk; 09-26-2015 at 05:57 AM.
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  #60  
Old 09-26-2015, 07:17 AM
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For those that don't know what an override trigger looks like with the 'skin' taken off, here's a Remington Walker. The adjusting screws and return springs are not shown.
The sear is pivoted at the hole in the right end--Muzzle to the right in this view.
The trigger is pivoted near the center of it's mass.
The sear return spring pushed UP on the sear.
The trigger return spring pushes the top of the trigger to the left so the connector sits under the sear by about .018".
When the trigger is pulled, the top of the trigger comes out from under the sear which is being pushed down on hard by the cocking stud. When the sear is released it goes down and the firing pin and cocking stud goes hard right and fires the rifle.

The connector is held in its proper place by the trigger return spring which comes in just about where the label 'connector' is located.

The amount of sear-connector overlap is adjusted by a screw (not shown) in the back of the trigger that pushes the trigger forward and allows it to go back to adjust that most critical of dimensions.

Some triggers have a second screw in the front for over-travel adjustment.
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