OBJECTION to proposed Remington-Walker Class action - Page 7 - Shooters Forum
» Advanced

Go Back   Shooters Forum > General > Warning Notices and Recalls
Register FAQ Members List Donate Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read



Like Tree59Likes
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #121  
Old 01-09-2016, 06:19 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Remote Idaho
Posts: 6,890

Registered Users do not see the above ad.


None of the above, frhunter13. It's cheaper too!
The Hunter Safety is simply placing the bolt in a position to be ready to fire but without totally closing it.
Every cock on opening bolt action shares a common feature: The cocking notch of the back of the bolt.
When the bolt is totally rotated open, the nose of the cocking piece rest on the back of the bolt body. Just as the bolt starts to close, several things happen at once. In gun with a shroud lock like M98s, M70, 03s and a few others, the shroud unlocks and begins to rotate....(actually the shroud is kept still by the action and its the bolt that is rotating within it. In non-lock guns, like P-14, 17, Remingtons, Sakos, and all their copies, the nose of the cocking piece fits in a small notch in the back of the bolt body. Between fully open and 'starting to rotate' is a distinctive 'notch' feel to the bolt. You'll see the cocking piece start to go forward and then stop and that 'notch' or 'detent'. The bolt still has to rotate about 85 degrees to be fully down and ONLY then is it capable of firing. With the bolt handle in the "Hunter Safety" notch, it's totally silent to close the bolt (I do with my right thumb) and then fire the rifle. I've shot a bull elk laying in the bed at 40 feet only because the Hunter Safety is silent, quick and most of all, it IS safe.

Edit to add-- You asked what to replace the XMP trigger with. I'm not in favor of changing it unless it falls in the recall area (2006 to early 2014). The Jewel is a target trigger and not needed on a .375.

Pictured is the 'shroud locking' system on a Rem M700 and a M700 in the Hunter Safe condition.
Attached Thumbnails
OBJECTION to proposed Remington-Walker Class action-clipboard80.jpg   OBJECTION to proposed Remington-Walker Class action-clipboard150.jpg  
__________________
There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun.

Last edited by JBelk; 01-09-2016 at 06:25 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 01-10-2016, 09:22 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 487
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
None of the above, frhunter13.

Edit to add-- You asked what to replace the XMP trigger with. I'm not in favor of changing it unless it falls in the recall area (2006 to early 2014). The Jewel is a target trigger and not needed on a .375.

Pictured is the 'shroud locking' system on a Rem M700 and a M700 in the Hunter Safe condition.
OK, now I am more non-plussed, sorry.

First off my Mausers started off at close to cock and had to be converted to cock on open. (Gun smith did that for me except for a Boar War 7mm jewel.) On those the safety was replaced as well - maybe it is a "Hunter" safety because it kind of works like you said. The .458 had been converted also and had one of these safety's as well. The Timney trigger slipped off the sear on the .458 though when the bolt/pin was released by the rear safety. That Timney has no safety. I experimented with it quite a bit to get the trigger adjusted so the rear safety would engage, and at the same time have the trigger to engage the sear correctly. I am no gun smith, but quite a persistent hard head.

The Boar War rifle is just as it ever was, cock on close with a three position swing safety.

The 375 is a 700 Dangerous Game limited edition which I bought in 2014. It is powder coat over stainless. It has an "adjustable" XMP trigger exact vintage unknown. Seems to work fine with the same pull time after time. The Walker on my M40 acts differently for sure. It walks, how apt.

Other thing is I could not find "Hunter Safety" mechanism when I searched the net. I did find the Jewell "Hunter" with safety, heh. So I expect this is a gunsmith term describing the standard method of adding a rear of bolt safety to a Mauser converted to "Cock on Open". Is that correct?
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 01-10-2016, 09:42 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Remote Idaho
Posts: 6,890
Cock on closing actions are VERY scarce in the US. The P-17 is the only one encountered except as a mil surp. 93 and 95 Mausers were cock on closing but never copied here. Cock on closing actions add another dimension and the 'Hunter Safety' cannot apply.

When a Timney (type) trigger is installed on an action designed for a direct-acting trigger, such as a M98 Mauser action, the gunsmith HAS to be sure the timing is correct between the new sear and the cocking piece. Otherwise a fire on safety release can be had even with a military safety!

I'm confused as to what rifles you have but for the M40 and the new .375. The "Boer rifle" is probably a Model 95 Mauser? (Underside of the bolt face is flat?)
I don't know of ANY cock on close action but a P-14/17 that a .458 works in and there is an aftermarket kit to make them cock on opening. Is that what you have?

"Hunter Safety" is a term coined my me, I think, but one I've taught, preached and insisted on with hunting clients with all types long guns.

In gun safety:
#1 is unloaded
#2 is unbreeched.
#3 depends on manual safeties designed by CPAs. Even the gun companies have told us not to trust them!!
__________________
There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun.
Reply With Quote
 
  #124  
Old 01-10-2016, 10:00 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 487
M98 and M24

The one I had converted to cock on open was an M24. He so customized a Model 96 also. Both rifles were converted to scoped hunting rifles.

The .458 was a Model 98 which had been customized with new barrel, bent bolt, new stock, cock on open, safety, express sights, drilled and tapped for a scope - and that Timney trigger.

The Boar War rifle is a Model 93 Mauser, actually a CCR gun except it has a new barrel and stock with really cool ghost ring sights. No scope. Different from the 95 and 98 because the swing safety is on safe where the 95 and after are on fire, the complete opposite. You MUST know this before using, heh.

Unfortunately my good friend, the aforementioned gun smith (Swamp Scott as we called him) drowned in a flash flood rip tide after jumping in and throwing his floundering niece up on high land. He died a hero.
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 01-10-2016, 01:34 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Remote Idaho
Posts: 6,890
Bravo for the hero. If you gotta go, go in style.

What's a M24? The Model 96 must be a Swede which is a cock on closing action. All Model 98s are cock on opening. Timney makes triggers for both, but they're different. Right on with the 'backwards' '93s. When I was a kid, Sears and Roebuck had both in a big pile and I learned quick to learn the differences.

M24? VZ-24? Venezuelan M24? Colombian? All of those are M98 actions.
__________________
There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun.
Reply With Quote
  #126  
Old 01-10-2016, 01:41 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 487
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
Bravo for the hero. If you gotta go, go in style.

What's a M24? The Model 96 must be a Swede which is a cock on closing action. All Model 98s are cock on opening. Timney makes triggers for both, but they're different. Right on with the 'backwards' '93s. When I was a kid, Sears and Roebuck had both in a big pile and I learned quick to learn the differences.

M24? VZ-24? Venezuelan M24? Colombian? All of those are M98 actions.
VZ 24 it was, cock on close - or so I thought! Has a 98K barrel and customized. Guess I got the 98's wrong. Weird since they came BEFORE the VZ 24. Swamp Scott put a new rear end on the bolt with that grove for the "Hunter Safe" safety you mentioned. He also did the entire Swede 96 custom job and I might have remembered incorrectly about the VZ, cock on close. Pops has German 98 long rifle and 98K bring backs. Next time I'm over there I will check that out. They have not been touched.

Last edited by frhunter13; 01-10-2016 at 01:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #127  
Old 01-10-2016, 04:15 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Remote Idaho
Posts: 6,890
The VZ-24 was the first arsenal made Model 98 with alloy steel and through hardening. Mauser Werkes stuck with casehardened mild steel until 1933. The VZ-24 is one of the only Model 98 that can be assured in quality of the metallurgy, except for Mauser Werkes (DWM). Late war guns VZs (CZ arsenal) were badly finished but 'right' everywhere else. The same can not be said of other M98 actions.

All Model '98s are cock on opening and ALL bolt action rifles have the 'hunter safety' position if they cock on opening. Sixty degree bolts have the same feature with the same safety as the ninties. It is the point when the sear is no longer supported by the body of the bolt and has contacted the sear.
__________________
There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun.
Reply With Quote
  #128  
Old 01-10-2016, 06:13 PM
MZ5's Avatar
MZ5 MZ5 is offline
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Arizona, USA
Posts: 2,264
I've been curious about the 'hunter safety' (not locking the bolt closed) on my Rugers, which are the MkII design, but haven't put any live rounds in to check. All of them quickly drive the bolt handle down & locked when I pull the trigger, even if the bolt is only turned toward lock _just_ enough to prevent it falling open. Like I say, I've not tried them with a live round yet, to see whether they'll fire. Not really interested; it's not a condition I'd carry them in, given what happens if the trigger's pulled.
__________________
"A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have." --Gerald Ford
Reply With Quote
  #129  
Old 01-10-2016, 06:17 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Remote Idaho
Posts: 6,890
Pulling the trigger closes the bolt by action of the cocking piece. It can't fire that way but the FP will touch the primer at the bottom of the travel. It's called a 'follow down'.
__________________
There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun.
Reply With Quote
  #130  
Old 01-10-2016, 07:37 PM
91Carcano's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Fallon Nevada
Posts: 324
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
None of the above, frhunter13. It's cheaper too!
The Hunter Safety is simply placing the bolt in a position to be ready to fire but without totally closing it.
Every cock on opening bolt action shares a common feature: The cocking notch of the back of the bolt.
Jack,
That's what the gunshop owner recommended to me when I purchased my VZOR 24. The trigger was the grittiest I've ever pulled and the safety was totally non-functional so he recommended I not close the bolt until I was ready to fire.
I didn't and don't like having a non-functioning safety even more than I dislike a crummy trigger.
Midway had the Power Custom Grand Master trigger on sale for half price, so I jumped on it. It took me most of the winter to file and stone it down to Just Right but I adjusted it until I could dry fire then reset the trigger by working the safety. It came, by the way, with a genuine Buehler (not a copy) safety. I know I'm supposed to have a qualified gunsmith do any and all trigger work but I'm kinda proud of my work. I probably should have it checked out by a real gunsmith.
__________________
On a day of seclusion
and utter confusion,
upon these delusions
I base my conclusions!
Reply With Quote
  #131  
Old 01-11-2016, 04:25 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Remote Idaho
Posts: 6,890
91 Carcano-- I've never heard of a Power trigger for a M-98, but I don't know what a VZOR24 is either, so maybe I'm way off base. There is NO over-ride trigger that benefits at ALL by filing and stoning. I'm just puzzled as to what you're working on and why.
Bueler safeties are good, but VERY easy to knock to the OFF position. I prefer the 1951 FN type that has the paddle to the left instead of the right. It's much easier to work if it's on the left side.
__________________
There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun.
Reply With Quote
  #132  
Old 01-11-2016, 04:38 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: New Orleans
Posts: 487
The 93 Mauser Safety

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
The VZ-24 was the first arsenal made Model 98 with alloy steel and through hardening. Mauser Werkes stuck with casehardened mild steel until 1933. The VZ-24 is one of the only Model 98 that can be assured in quality of the metallurgy, except for Mauser Werkes (DWM). Late war guns VZs (CZ arsenal) were badly finished but 'right' everywhere else. The same can not be said of other M98 actions.
Scott told me the 93 might stretch some because it was not hardened alloy, so he cut the chamber of the new 22" chrome molly barrel blank to the minimum. He heat treated the receiver, extractor and other parts as well. The result is a gun that will not accept my reloads but does quite well with the Winchester 145gr 7x57 factory ammo. It's even lighter than a Winchester 30 30. Since this post is about safeties I note the three position safety on the 93, which is a cock on close. Full counter clockwise on the safety too fire. The bolt will open in this position and you can eject a shell. Top center safety position blocks the sights, and locks trigger and the firing pin. You can extract shells in this position. Full clockwise is safe. You cannot eject a shell or fire the rifle in this position.

These were the rifles that confounded the British in the Boar War. Way better than anything the Brits had at the time.

Seems pretty safe? It has never misbehaved in any way except that extraction is a little hard.
Reply With Quote
  #133  
Old 01-11-2016, 05:03 AM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Remote Idaho
Posts: 6,890
frhunter13--- You describe the classic Mauser three position shroud safety. The Americans copied it with the Krag and Springfield and then Winchester copied it on the Mod. 54 but turned the pivot to vertical for the Model 70, but it works the same way.

There is only one weakness in that safety and it only shows up when the entire trigger system is changed. When the original Mauser trigger is used (Springfield copied that too.), the action is direct from the trigger to the sear. When the trigger is pulled the sear MOVES with it. The first stage reduces sear engagement with the cocking piece by about 80% and the second stage moves the sear the rest of the way and fires the gun. It is difficult to pull the trigger while removing the safety on an original military Mauser. There is a finger acting in one way and a thumb trying to go the other way and it's difficult to pull the trigger far enough to fire it accidentally.

When we change the trigger system to an over-ride system all that changes. The sear is hanging on the very corner of the trigger and the trigger only has to move about .020 inch for the gun to fire. It is EASY to brush the trigger while trying to move the safety from one position to the other. Even more common is to have a trigger that drags a little on the trigger guard or a bit of glass bedding so it sticks to the rear. If that happens, the rifle fires when the safety is released. That is what happens with the Remington Walker but the actual trigger is NOT what your finger is on. The connector is what holds up the sear and acts as the trigger, not what you're pulling on!
The answer to that 'problem' is to have a interconnected trigger that cannot pull while pressure is exerted on the safety (or visa versa). No such system exist right now, so ALL bolt action rifles can fire on safety release if the trigger is pulled the same time the safety is moved to OFF.

I have pictures and diagrams with arrows following the energy in my book. Once the flow of energy is seen, trigger systems lose a lot of their mystery.
__________________
There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun.
Reply With Quote
  #134  
Old 01-11-2016, 06:56 PM
91Carcano's Avatar
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Fallon Nevada
Posts: 324
Post Power Custom trigger

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
91 Carcano-- I've never heard of a Power trigger for a M-98,
You can find it on this link: Power Custom 77-22 and M98 Parts
The M-98 trigger is the last item on the page.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
but I don't know what a VZOR24 is either, so maybe I'm way off base.
"VZOR" is the Czech word for "Model" but it's most often abbreviated to "VZ" just like we abbreviate "Model" to "MD". VZOR24 = VZ-24.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
There is NO over-ride trigger that benefits at ALL by filing and stoning. I'm just puzzled as to what you're working on and why.
I only followed the directions but I lost the paper years ago. Going from my faulty memory, the piece that holds the firing pin from going forward - I think Power called it the "disconnector" - had to be filed down for the safety to work. I pull the trigger, allowing the firing pin to push this disconnector (?) to pivot forward and down. When the firing pin returns to the back - firing position - a spring resets the "disconnector" to the upright, where it can once again block the firing pin. The safety also cams the firing pin back just enough to reset the trigger. This way, I can pull the trigger with the safety on but the safety cams the firing pin back just enough to reset the trigger.
(Hope I was clear and not too verbose.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JBelk View Post
Bueler safeties are good, but VERY easy to knock to the OFF position. I prefer the 1951 FN type that has the paddle to the left instead of the right. It's much easier to work if it's on the left side.
I'm unfamiliar with this. Does the shooter work the safety with his left hand?
__________________
On a day of seclusion
and utter confusion,
upon these delusions
I base my conclusions!
Reply With Quote
  #135  
Old 01-11-2016, 07:09 PM
Beartooth Regular
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Remote Idaho
Posts: 6,890
Thanks for the link. That's a typical Sako style over-ride trigger. I understand you had to relieve the sear enough for the safety to cam the cocking piece back the proper amount. All good.

The 1951 FN safety flips up on the left side so the safety leaf is under the eyepiece of the scope. It's easy to flip down with the right thumb...which is over on that side of the stock anyhow. In 1953, FN started with the classic FN bolt shroud and moved the safety to the right side of the tang and blocks only the trigger.

I've owned CZs, VZs, and BRNOs for 40 years and had never heard of VZOR. Live and learn!
__________________
There is no safe direction to point an unsafe gun.

Last edited by JBelk; 01-11-2016 at 08:07 PM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Remington .338 Lapua kudu40 Rifles and Rifle Cartridges 18 04-04-2015 03:54 PM
Old Remington Centerfire Slide Action .22MRF Rifles and Rifle Cartridges 4 02-02-2015 05:35 AM
Is there a Cowboy Action Class for .22 LR? DanWin22 Cowboy Loads and Guns 13 02-13-2012 06:54 PM
where to buy a remington 700 action twpbaseball10 Gunsmithing 8 10-12-2010 07:01 PM


All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:46 AM.

< Contact Us - Shooters Forum - Archive - Privacy Statement >

 
 

All Content & Design Copyright © 1999-2002 Beartooth Bullets, All Rights Reserved
Privacy Statement | Contact Webmaster
Website Design & Development By Exbabylon Internet Solutions
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.1