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  #61  
Old 05-25-2013, 12:53 PM
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Lots of folks make that point, but the warning came from Alliant, who wants to sell powder, so obviously it was caused by some kinds of unhappy events. Just because something can happen doesn't mean it's guaranteed to happen or that it even happens very often. It can be like winning a lottery in that it may only happen to one person in thousands, except in this lottery the "winner" gets punished rather than rewarded. In any case, there's no point in buying a ticket for this particular drawing when it's so easy not to. Just use something else in .41 Mag or with 125 grain bullets in .357 Mag. In the meanwhile, the warning has to stand until someone figures out what happened specifically and reports on it. As Rocky pointed out, Alliant's not talking.
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  #62  
Old 05-26-2013, 10:47 AM
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I had been using Blue . in my loads too, but after reading this warning I restrict its use to only rounds that are safe to use it in.

I don't know if you have any idea of what its like to have a gun blow up on you, but I can tell you from personal experience it changes your view point of gun safety. Mine was a 12 G. 3 1/2" shotgun using factory goose loads. Yes I was fortunate enough to live, but it wasn't without leaving its mark on both me and my son.
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  #63  
Old 05-26-2013, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JimboLLN View Post
I had been using Blue . in my loads too, but after reading this warning I restrict its use to only rounds that are safe to use it in.
With the exception of the prohibitions listed on Alliant's site, what rounds are you claiming are not safe to use it in?

A lot of powders don't work in certain cartridges simply because they are not right for that application, not because there is any danger in doing so. Blue Dot is no more, and no less dangerous when used properly (appropriately) than any other powder, except for the two listed prohibitions from Alliant.
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  #64  
Old 05-29-2013, 05:32 PM
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I used Blue Dot for years with a 41 Mag Blackhawk. I don't load near max with that powder and have never noticed anything odd about it. I've also used it with my 357Mag and again never noticed anything but I'm not sure I tried 125gr with it tending towards 158gr
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  #65  
Old 05-30-2013, 03:55 AM
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JonP,

I think the problems pop up at the low end of the load spectrum, and in very cold conditions.

I've had low end loads, starting loads, lodge bullets in a barrel. That would be a problem if you didn't notice it. That could happen on a busy range where shooters next to you are blazing away with their 500 S&W or similar.
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  #66  
Old 05-30-2013, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by JonP View Post
I used Blue Dot for years with a 41 Mag Blackhawk. I don't load near max with that powder and have never noticed anything odd about it. I've also used it with my 357Mag and again never noticed anything but I'm not sure I tried 125gr with it tending towards 158gr
The warning doesn't mean that anybody who uses Blue Dot in a .41 Mag is going to blow up their gun. It means that there is some specified problem that has occurred often enough that they feel the necessity to warn people about it. The fact that they don't tell anybody what that specific problem is means to me that they don't know what causes it, and likely can't duplicate it in the lab.

You may not have had a problem to this point, and you may never have one, but since we don't know what causes the problem and precipitated the warning being issued you're tossing the dice every time you pull the trigger.

Personally, I don't like those kinds of odds.
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  #67  
Old 05-31-2013, 05:39 AM
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Good way to put it.

High load or low load, we don't know what it is because Alliant won't say. Squib-outs may be the case, or peaking suddenly as the load nears maximum may be the case, or, as was suggested earlier, it may be just that there are a bunch of unsafe loads published in older data and Alliant has decided to cut the issue off at the knees. Since they aren't talking, for now, it is prudent not to assume any load in .41 Mag or with 125 grain bullets in .357 Mag is safe. Worst case would be they've had repeated blow-ups reported in .41 Mags with all bullet weights and in .357 Mags with 125 grain bullets, so it is simply a statistical fact and they don't have a clue why it is happening.
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  #68  
Old 06-22-2013, 02:22 PM
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The only Blue Dot loads I have ever loaded close to maximum were for Magnum Handgun matches with steel popper targets calibrated to require legal hunting loads in Colorado - 550ft-lbs @ 50 yards. This was a game that required .41 and .44 magnum handguns. After realizing that too many competitors were loading on the extreme side of most load books and still not dropping poppers due to popper hinges wearing out.....the match directors did the prudent thing in my estimate.....the calibrated the poppers for slightly lessor loads and serviced the hinges on a regular basis.
As a result all competitors are dropping back on their loads...I should say that a good number of them, including myself, were and still are Blue Dot users.
IMO the Blue Dot warning was due to some detected errors in load books. Once these errors are detected the lawyers probably required the "do not use disclaimer". Avoiding maximum loads and watching your primers carefully should keep you out of the red zone. I have seen quite a few shooters use magnum primers for loads worked up with standard primers....another recipe for disaster!
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  #69  
Old 06-22-2013, 03:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otisco Kid View Post
The only Blue Dot loads I have ever loaded close to maximum were for Magnum Handgun matches with steel popper targets calibrated to require legal hunting loads in Colorado - 550ft-lbs @ 50 yards. This was a game that required .41 and .44 magnum handguns. After realizing that too many competitors were loading on the extreme side of most load books and still not dropping poppers due to popper hinges wearing out.....the match directors did the prudent thing in my estimate.....the calibrated the poppers for slightly lessor loads and serviced the hinges on a regular basis.
As a result all competitors are dropping back on their loads...I should say that a good number of them, including myself, were and still are Blue Dot users.
IMO the Blue Dot warning was due to some detected errors in load books. Once these errors are detected the lawyers probably required the "do not use disclaimer". Avoiding maximum loads and watching your primers carefully should keep you out of the red zone. I have seen quite a few shooters use magnum primers for loads worked up with standard primers....another recipe for disaster!
Have to disagree. If it was simply a matter of a typo, they would've issued a correction and posted something in all the usual places telling people about it. I have talked to Alliant's techs via email about this warning, and was told in no uncertain terms that it referred only to those specific loads mentioned in the warning on their website. They have steadfastly refused to go into detail about the whys and wherefores of that warning. That tells me two things: they aren't sure of the cause, and they can't duplicate it reliably in the lab.

Do NOT rely on primer appearance as an indicator of pressure in handgun ammo. It is not a reliable method for determining excess pressure. Blue Dot is an excellent powder for heavier bullets at full power, and up into the lower end of magnum level loads. I would not recommend it if you are trying to get full power magnum level loads in any caliber. But, all that said, it has given me excellent results in 9mm, .38 Super, .357, .44 Spl and Mag, .45 ACP, and .45 Colt. Been using it for almost 40 years.
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Last edited by rifter; 06-22-2013 at 03:05 PM.
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  #70  
Old 06-22-2013, 05:01 PM
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I can appreciate your view point but can only question what type of warning or disclaimer could possibly erase all of the existing published data already out for public consumption?
I think Alliant's disclaimer tells us exactly which calibers and loads are suspect. Heed the warning? I'm 100% for that.
Not reloading any .41 caliber ammo with Blue Dot??? Does not make sense to me. Faulty data for all .41mag loads is understandable.
From experience the .41mag is easy for component sales to ignore. They did it on gas checks a few years ago!
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  #71  
Old 06-23-2013, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Otisco Kid View Post
I can appreciate your view point but can only question what type of warning or disclaimer could possibly erase all of the existing published data already out for public consumption?
I think Alliant's disclaimer tells us exactly which calibers and loads are suspect. Heed the warning? I'm 100% for that.
Not reloading any .41 caliber ammo with Blue Dot??? Does not make sense to me. Faulty data for all .41mag loads is understandable.
From experience the .41mag is easy for component sales to ignore. They did it on gas checks a few years ago!
Well, my point of view is based on experience with this powder. Its the only pistol powder I've used for a very long time. It gives excellent velocity and is very accurate when you use it properly, but it has its quirks.

It should be obvious that the warning was issued based on problems that came up in all that 'old' data you talk about, else they wouldn't have issued it. I don't have the lab equipment to do the kind of testing they do, so I have to rely on their expertise in that. If they say don't use it under X circumstances, it's prudent to follow that advice. Whether it makes sense to you or not shouldn't even enter in to it.
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  #72  
Old 06-23-2013, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Otisco Kid
Not reloading any .41 caliber ammo with Blue Dot??? Does not make sense to me.
No, but it doesn't have to make sense. All we know is they observed something, but not what. Could be all kinds of things. For example, it may be purely statistical. They may simply receive ten times as many gun burst reports per million rounds fired in 41 Mag or in .357 Mag with 125 grain bullets as they do with any other Blue Dot applications or than accidental over-charging normally accounts for. If there's no commonality to the sources of load data being employed by the unfortunates who had this experience, they may genuinely just have no way to account for it. They just know it's so.

I recently started reading the last book the late Michael Creighton wrote (Micro). In the preamble (incomplete at the time of his death), he points out that nature and the stock market are both complex systems. Yet, whereas we would immediately dismiss anyone who tried to tell us how particular stocks were going to perform in the next three days as a crook or a charlatan, when someone claims to know how the environment is going to behave well down the road we have not yet come to realize we should see them as we do the stock prognosticators, or else as fools. As the quote in my signature line implies, the interior ballistics of any gun is also a complex system. And just because we can't "see" why something might happen, doesn't mean it can't. I don't see why dark matter should exist, but it's effects are detectable. It's just how it is.

The fact our own experience shooting Blue Dot load combinations has been uneventful doesn't prove there's nothing in the warnings, either. Most of us have never been run down by a Buick, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. All that is demonstrated by the anecdotal evidence of our own pedestrian experience with Buicks is that the probability of being run down by one isn't high; but not that it's zero.

I assume a manufacturer gets more feedback from people shooting more rounds than we will ever fire personally, and that this larger data may have turned up unexpected or even unexplained effects for Blue Dot. Maybe not. Maybe there was just something they measured in the lab that alarmed them, but that they can't replicate consistently and don't understand. Whatever has raised the alarm, though, it's imprudent to ignore it until they are able to explain it, if they ever can.
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Last edited by unclenick; 10-06-2013 at 08:38 AM. Reason: clarification
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  #73  
Old 06-23-2013, 03:06 PM
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I like Blue Dot second only to 2400 in the .357 and .41 mags. In fact I prefer Blue Dot when using jacketed bullets.
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  #74  
Old 06-24-2013, 10:19 AM
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Just be aware that since you are ignoring the Alliant warning, the added risk is your own, as are the consequences, should the Buick put in an appearance.
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  #75  
Old 10-02-2013, 06:53 AM
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Any further updates on this?
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  #76  
Old 10-02-2013, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by R-WEST View Post
Any further updates on this?
No, and since it has been many years since Alliant issued the warnings with no updates, it is unlikely there will be any.

Follow their recommendations, and those of us here who have experience with it, and you won't have any problems.
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  #77  
Old 10-04-2013, 07:39 AM
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"Dear Functional Wholesaler:"

What about non-functional wholesalers? (LOL)
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  #78  
Old 01-03-2014, 01:36 PM
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Perhaps too many people accept max loads in books and thats what they use...I don't care what powder you use always start with the starting load reccommendations...even if its just one round try up max, you will know when it gets hot.

Rays rule: Too much powder is dangerous, and on rare ocassion too little powder is dangerous.

As for Blue dot don't accept anyones load, start 10% below max and work up a bit at a time for your individual gun. Good idea with any powder. It may also be a good enough reason not to use Bluedot, let Alliant eat it..
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  #79  
Old 01-03-2014, 07:33 PM
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Perhaps too many people accept max loads in books and thats what they use...I don't care what powder you use always start with the starting load reccommendations...even if its just one round try up max, you will know when it gets hot.

Rays rule: Too much powder is dangerous, and on rare ocassion too little powder is dangerous.

As for Blue dot don't accept anyones load, start 10% below max and work up a bit at a time for your individual gun. Good idea with any powder. It may also be a good enough reason not to use Bluedot, let Alliant eat it..

If you don't feel like you're safe using it, don't use it. Perhaps you also shouldn't use 296/H110, or some of the other powders that have advisory warnings attached.
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  #80  
Old 12-11-2014, 05:15 PM
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So I guess my 44 magnum Loads are safe to use.?
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