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  #81  
Old 12-11-2014, 07:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by REDTAIL View Post
So I guess my 44 magnum Loads are safe to use.?
Without seeing what your loads are, I would have to say no. If you want to post the loads, then I can give an informed opinion. I've burned a lot of Blue Dot in the .44 Spl/Mag.
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  #82  
Old 01-05-2017, 02:05 AM
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I have some Blue Dot Powder that's about 20 yrs Old & using it for my 44 Magnum handgun Loading great results with it.
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  #83  
Old 01-05-2017, 06:23 AM
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The warning is not for .44 Magnum. It is only for .41 Magnum and one bullet weight in .357 Magnum. We still don't know why or what issue Alliant had that brought this about.
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  #84  
Old 01-05-2017, 07:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclenick View Post
The warning is not for .44 Magnum. It is only for .41 Magnum and one bullet weight in .357 Magnum. We still don't know why or what issue Alliant had that brought this about.

The warnings pre-date Alliant by a quite a few years. Hercules issued them originally. Its my understanding that it was due to pressure spiking, but they never gave any detail of the specifics. Some combination of caliber, case volume, bullet weight, and pressure. I've never messed with the .41 Mag, but I used a lot of Blue Dot in the .357 with bullet weights of 140 gr. and up. One of my favorite loads was with the old Speer 160 gr. half jacket and a good dose of BD.
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  #85  
Old 01-05-2017, 09:00 AM
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Well, I finally used up the last of the Blue Dot/.357/125 grain JSP loads in my GP100 and Dan Wesson without any incidents.
Darn, I'm gonna' miss it - I had about 8# of B.D. that I got specifically for that combo.
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  #86  
Old 01-05-2017, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R-WEST View Post
Well, I finally used up the last of the Blue Dot/.357/125 grain JSP loads in my GP100 and Dan Wesson without any incidents.
Darn, I'm gonna' miss it - I had about 8# of B.D. that I got specifically for that combo.
You like to live dangerously, don't you?
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  #87  
Old 01-10-2017, 09:02 PM
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Beginning in the late 70's early 80's I've used a lot of BD in .357 mag. 125 gr. SJHP's, & 44 mag. 180 gr. 200 gr. and 210 gr. JHP's. I also used it for 41 mag., Ruger SBH, but that was short lived, sold the gun and don't specifically recall which bullets I was running for that 41.

Never had a single problem with BD then or now in any chambering I use it for. And although I've seen warnings regarding BD before it's never acted up in any firearm or cartridge I've used it in, but thanks just the same.

SMOA
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  #88  
Old 01-11-2017, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Submoa View Post
Beginning in the late 70's early 80's I've used a lot of BD in .357 mag. 125 gr. SJHP's, & 44 mag. 180 gr. 200 gr. and 210 gr. JHP's. I also used it for 41 mag., Ruger SBH, but that was short lived, sold the gun and don't specifically recall which bullets I was running for that 41.

Never had a single problem with BD then or now in any chambering I use it for. And although I've seen warnings regarding BD before it's never acted up in any firearm or cartridge I've used it in, but thanks just the same.

SMOA
Just because you never had problems doesn't mean others didn't. Enough people did have that Hercules thought it was an issue and issued the warnings accordingly. That's fact, not conjecture. You can choose to ignore that as you see fit. I will say, however, that I've seen a lot of guys over the years who have ignored similar warnings and lived to regret it. Hope you are luckier than they were.

As someone who has used Blue Dot for the better part of 50 years, I think I know what it is capable of, what its peculiarities are, and what it can do when pushed outside its comfort zone. Personally, I took the warnings issued by Hercules/Alliant at face value, based on what I know about how the powder responds.
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Last edited by rifter; 01-11-2017 at 11:29 AM.
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  #89  
Old 01-11-2017, 11:33 AM
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Five pages out, and eight years now. Unclenick posted the original warning in post #3 of this thread. Might be worth your time to read it for perspective.

I sure liked Blue Dot in the 41. I would have thought it would get sorted out by now. I imagine there is a reason for that too. I could speculate there, but I won't.

Cheezywan
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  #90  
Old 01-11-2017, 11:55 PM
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The really weird part is that its only the 125gr bullet for .357. yet the 110gr and 140gr and heavier bullets are okay. With that 110gr in the mix, it kind of kills any theory I've ever heard.
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  #91  
Old 01-13-2017, 07:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TimSr View Post
The really weird part is that its only the 125gr bullet for .357. yet the 110gr and 140gr and heavier bullets are okay. With that 110gr in the mix, it kind of kills any theory I've ever heard.
The problem, of course, is that Hercules and then Alliant, has never published the specifics. I expect that is with good reason. People have a tendency to have to try to find out themselves in such cases. You always see people who get indignant and say things like "I've been using this for 20 years and never had a problem". There's a couple posts like that in this thread in fact.

My approach to such warnings is that the company wouldn't have put it out if there wasn't a good reason to do so. Since I don't have all the facts that they have, nor the equipment to test that they have, I will follow their recommendations until there is reason not to.

I've gotten through nearly 50 years of reloading without a serious mishap, knock on wood. Even though I have pushed the envelope in some respects in that time, I've not done it in the face of warnings like this one. I don't see a reason to change that approach at this late date.
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  #92  
Old 01-13-2017, 11:17 AM
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Folks, I think Rocky said it purdy good here in his #12 post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rocky Raab View Post
I wish I still had an inside contact at Alliant, as I do at Hodgdon. Alas, I do not. So I can't positively confirm my post above. It is still the only explanation that fits all the facts, however.

Guys, if you have existing loads that you are comfortable with, go ahead and use them. If you find independently-developed loads from another source (non-Alliant) then you should also feel confident in using that. Just don't use Alliant data, or data copied from Allinat (such as Lee data) until they get this sorted out. One list of loads is bad, and only one. Just avoid that one. It's not that big a hardship.
Alliant testing had the problem. Other providers of reloading data did not.

Getting close to a statute of limitations milestone now. Wonder if we will learn the whole of this?

Cheezywan
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  #93  
Old 01-13-2017, 01:16 PM
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He could be right, but, unfortunately, without confirmation we won't ever know if it was that or if it was a law suit. I was hired by a major gun manufacturer (can't name because of NDA) to solve the bursting of several guns without clear explanation. They had done all their homework getting the steel x-ray'd to look for metallurgy problems and tested every way they could think of, including overcharges and so on before I got into it, and had found nothing except that it always happened with a certain type of bullet. So they put in their literature that this type of bullet was unapproved, even though hundreds of thousands of them had probably been fired successfully. They had a lawsuit they had been able to get dismissed because the shooter had ignored that warning and used the disapproved bullet anyway. But it made no sense that it shouldn't shoot that type of bullet just fine. I solved the cause, which gave them several ways to make it safe to use that type of bullet again. But if I or someone else hadn't figured out the chain of events that had to occur for the burst to happen, they'd simply have gone on saying not to use that type of bullet.

Alliant could certainly have an analogous situation, but not yet been successful finding the cause. So they can only continue to say, don't use that bullet or, in the case of the .41 Mag, not to use the powder in it at all (if they saw the problem in multiple bullet weights).

Unless they say, we won't know. So, for personal safety I would follow Rifter's approach and assume the hundreds of thousands if not millions of successfully fired rounds that fell inside Alliant's no-go parameters were just lucky. Don't get me wrong. It could still be a testing phenomenon only. We don't know, and I'm just pointing out the reason we don't know is that their behavior is consistent with industry handling of a customer reported catastrophic failure problem nobody can make sense of.
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Last edited by unclenick; 01-13-2017 at 01:20 PM.
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  #94  
Old 01-13-2017, 01:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheezywan View Post
Folks, I think Rocky said it purdy good here in his #12 post.



Alliant testing had the problem. Other providers of reloading data did not.

Getting close to a statute of limitations milestone now. Wonder if we will learn the whole of this?

Cheezywan
This is ridiculous. Hercules was the company that posted the original warnings, not Alliant. Alliant has let them stand. That's all that needs be said.

And thanks, Nick, for backing me up.
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Last edited by rifter; 01-13-2017 at 01:27 PM.
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  #95  
Old 01-13-2017, 01:36 PM
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OK. Not in a fight with any of you. Just a player.

I will stand down.

Cheezywan

****it!

Last edited by Cheezywan; 01-13-2017 at 02:03 PM. Reason: I forgot to say ****it.
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  #96  
Old 01-14-2017, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by rifter View Post
The problem, of course, is that Hercules and then Alliant, has never published the specifics. I expect that is with good reason. People have a tendency to have to try to find out themselves in such cases. You always see people who get indignant and say things like "I've been using this for 20 years and never had a problem". There's a couple posts like that in this thread in fact.
There is a more practical side to wanting to know why, and that is for the many loads that are extrapolated from existing data, or simply working with similar rounds and wanting to know what signs to look for, and whether there might be a danger of the same problems showing up. For example, the warning for 357 125gr made a lot of people nervous about using it for a 110gr or a 140gr and would like to know what the dangers are. Now we have these 130 or 135gr bullets that weren't around when the warning was issued. Are they a danger? All 41 mag are off limits in the warning. Do we have to worry about 40SW or 10mm? I just don't see any value in withholding information for a product that is essentially made for the purpose of development, experimentation and prototyping, especially info that helps to access the risks. Even if they don't know the cause, it would be helpful to know the results that led them to be concerned so that we can watch for such symptoms.
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  #97  
Old 01-14-2017, 06:36 AM
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Here it is 7 1/2 years later and no one is any closer to figuring out what's going on with ONLY LOADS for 125 grain bullets in the .357 and ALL LOADS in the 41 mag yet Bluedot is perfectly safe in ALL OTHER caliber/bullet/cartridge combinations.

I just re-read the whole thread and it amazes me that NO ONE has answers yet.

RJ
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  #98  
Old 01-14-2017, 11:37 AM
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As far as we know, the don't really know the cause. Nor are they even revealing the symptom clearly. For liability reasons, they probably won't, so guessing has no merit. You just heed the warning and hope it comes out at some point.
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  #99  
Old 01-14-2017, 01:01 PM
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`Agree about heeding the warning. I have, and will continue to do so. Rifter is there. Learn from his/her thinking.
I will "suggest" that this thread is some less about "guessing" than it is about applying logic to what "we (meaning collective of shooters forum members) do know.

An observation: The warning is gone from their web site (or at least not obvious to me when looking for it).

Blue Dot reloading data for the 41 has not changed. The data for use in 357 HAS started to include Blue Dot (not for 125 grain bullets).

This is starting to "feel" a lot like Mrs. Clinton wanting "us" to forget about her e-mail to me.

Below is how it read before it ceased to exist. Courtesy of moderator unclenick in his post #3.


Alliant Powder Blue DotŪ Product Safety Notice

Alliant PowderŪ periodically reviews and tests their published reloading data to verify that recommended recipes have not changed over time.
During the latest review Alliant Powder discovered that Alliant Powder’s Blue DotŪ should not be used in the following applications:
• Blue DotŪ should NOT be used in the 357 Magnum load using the 125 grain projectile (Blue DotŪ recipes with heavier bullet weights as specified in Alliant Powders Reloading Guide are acceptable for use).
• Blue DotŪ should NOT be used in the 41 Magnum cartridge (all bullet weights).
Use of Blue DotŪ in the above cases may cause a high pressure situation that could cause property damage and serious personal injury.

We apologize for any inconvenience that this may cause and appreciate your understanding and cooperation in this matter.
Thank you for your cooperation and if you have any questions or concerns please contact me at [email protected] or call me at 540-639-8503.

Dick Quesenberry
Alliant Powder
Product Line Manager"

I wonder how Blue Dot might work with a 124 or 126 grain bullet in a 357 cartridge?

Stay safe out there.

Cheezywan
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