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  #41  
Old 09-30-2008, 08:11 AM
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Chaotica, nothing, absolutely nothing, some choose not to use the the 3piece Collete with the retainers, there is nothing wrong with using a shell holder and among the users of shell holders there is a preference among users and brands, nothing wrong with that choice, all three methods work, it is about the hazard as presented does not exist, there seems to be an effort to disregard or ignore some information presented, If someone has a hammer that is not configured like Rocky Raab's hammer do not use shell holders, if someone does not understand the configuration do not use shell holders, if someone finds a loaded cartridge with a high primer do not put the cartridge in the 'hammer', do not try and seat the primer in the loading press, even though most shell holders have a milled slot to prevent contact between the primer and shell holder (for safety), I have shell holders that not only do not have milled slots, they do not have a hole for a fast exiting primer, for another day.

And, if you find a loaded cartridge with a high primer do not chamber it in a slide action anything, I have friends that have accidentally seated a primer with their 1911 45 ACP,
around those people, I will not slide a loaded clip into the bottom of my pistols and then release the slide with a slam.

F. Guffey
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  #42  
Old 09-30-2008, 06:39 PM
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I think before we theorize ourselves into believing the thread's seminal event never occurred, a couple of things need to be pointed out. First, some people pull bullets from cartridges that are narrower than .473" case heads and have more room to move and are therefore should not be lulled into complacency about constrained bullet alignment. Big cases are not entirely alone in the world, so these folks need to see the warning and be wary.

Second, MtJerry's puller DID blow up and it DOES have the primer indentation that would result from the orientation my illustration shows. No other cogent explanation of that indentation has yet been offered that does not equally violate the allowed room in a properly tightened puller. This is not "chaotica". This is a statement of fact that won't alter to conform to how things ought to be. Look at the pictures rather than going into denial. It happened!

Third, unless you have MtJerry's tools in your hand, you don't know their exact dimensions, and if, as Slim says, the suppliers have varied over the years, then there is no reason not to think the dimensions have not also, possibly leaving some persons at risk even with the big bores.

I think, especially in light of Scott0116's post, that my rebound hypothesis is likely correct and the event occurred like this: The cap came loose and backed out. When the plastic body struck the board, being plastic, it created an expansion of the hammer body that momentarily shortened it's height a bit. When the expansion snapped back, it propelled the shell holder and cartridge upward into the loose cap. When encountering the cap brought that motion to an abrupt halt in its loose space, the relative positions of the shell holder and the cartridge were as I illustrated, or perhaps were cocked a bit as well? The shell holder was stopped in its upward motion first, and the cartridge slammed into it. An example of this rebounding snap effect is in the experience Scott0116 posted, where the parts flew up and away with no combustion required.

It is clear from such an event that all the stars have to line up right for it to occur. It is also clear it cannot happen this way with the collets supplied by the maker.
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Last edited by unclenick; 10-01-2008 at 04:29 AM.
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  #43  
Old 10-01-2008, 05:59 AM
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Unclenick, no one said there was not an event, his hammer has a name, contact the manufacturer, there are too many users of the hammer that use shell holders, of those, none would use the hammer in a crowd out of respect for the crowd or fear of the hammer. If there are parts that can not be found, how convenient??? Have you found your hammer? Where are the instructions?

A disregard for information for what ever reason, sometimes is self serving, A suggestion was made in regard to centering the case in 'the hammer', 'O' Rings, use 'O' rings to center the case, use 'O' rings, there are 'O' rings and 'o' rings and 'O' rings are cheap and have many uses, or drill the hole in the shell holder and dedicate it's use to 'the hammer', never get caught without safety glasses, consider a face shield or we can disregard this information also and talk this subject to death.

Accept responsibility, it is not always someone else's fault nor is it the fault of the tool when it is abused or misused.

F. Guffey
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  #44  
Old 10-01-2008, 08:04 AM
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Think this thread has come full circle and we are just repeating ourselves now.

Thanks for the input.

Thread locked.
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  #45  
Old 03-09-2009, 07:20 PM
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Follow up

While we don’t normally make it a practice to add to closed threads, this is a legitimate safety issue, and thus merits an exception. Every moderator on this board who once used shell holders in inertial bullet pullers has stopped doing so after Mt. Jerry’s post, all figuring safety first until it was better understood.

Awhile after this thread was written, I found my Quinetics inertial bullet pullet (It was hiding in an ammo can full of wrenches). Here’s what I learned:

What you see attached as Figure 1, below, is how a rimless .473” diameter case (.308, .30-06, .45 ACP) lies in the body of the puller. Contrary to some statements made in defense of the shell holder practice, the case is not forced into the center. It would take a wider case to do that. As a result, if you place such a case in a shell holder and orient the loading slot in the holder upright so gravity pulls the case into the end of the slot, then tighten the cap against the holder, you will see the bottom of the shell holder slot nicely cradles it in the center (Figure 2). However, if you rotate the slot so that either gravity or the centrifugal effect of swinging the puller in an arc can move the shell toward the mouth of the slot, it is no-longer centered (Figure 3). Even though it is hard to see in the photo, the primer slightly overlaps the edge of the hole through the shell holder. This is what I attempted to illustrate would happen with the earlier drawing that was disputed as “seriously flawed”.



Finally, have a look at Figure 4. This is a worst case event. The cap has loosened, as can happen in a single blow, and the shell holder slot has zigged while the case has zagged. By moving in opposite directions, they create a very substantial primer overlap with the edge of the hole through the shell holder.

None of the above is enough to cause the accident Mt. Jerry originally described. Another ingredient is required. You have to be trying to disassemble a round with a high primer. That primer cannot be higher than fits in the shell holder slot, but still allows several thousandths, and if it is high at all, trouble is awaiting the incautious. High primers are responsible for the vast majority of slamfires that occur in self-loaders.

Having no firing pin, the firing mechanism in the kinetic puller is a little different from that in a slamfiring rifle. When you swing the puller and strike a hard surface, the puller body bounces off that surface. The mechanics of the bounce are no different than the mechanics of bouncing a rubber ball, except the hammer’s elastic deformation is less extreme and it snaps back to shape much more sharply. This pushes it off against the impact surface and launches it upward. The momentary deformation at impact sees the puller body squash down a little and this allows the cartridge and shell holder to keep moving downward by that same small amount. When it snaps back, it propels the shell holder and cartridge upward sharply. If the cap is secure, it and the shell holder move together. If it is loose, the shell holder will pop up to a stop against the cap. The cartridge, however, has some free play within the slot in the shell holder, so it keeps going until it hits the other side of the slot, regardless of whether the cap is secure or loose.

If the primer lines up with the hole in the shell holder, the above-mentioned collisions are no problem even when the primer is high. But if the primer does not align with the case, and it is also high, then it will strike the edge of the hole in the shell holder. This apparently can cause ignition. I believe that in Mt. Jerry’s case, from the overlapping impression in the primer in the fired case he recovered, that he also had the cap come loose. That may or may not be necessary to get enough primer/shell holder hole overlap to cause ignition in a case with a .473” head diameter, but I don’t care to test the point. The deformation and shock traversing the puller after impact can loosen the cap, and if you don’t stop to check the cap between blows, it could bring about the much more severe misalignment that apparently can cause a .473” casehead’s high primer to go off.

As you go to pulling narrower diameter cartridges than those with a .473” casehead, obviously the hazard increases because even with the cap tight, there is more room for the cartridge to slide around and overlap the hole through the shell holder. It just doesn’t seem worth the risk. Moreover, Quinetics has now come out with a case holding collet chuck design with crimped-in O-rings that will snap over a case without all the manipulation the original style holders require. So you can have your quick change and be safe, too. Follow the link below for details.

http://quinetics.com/chuck.html
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Inertial Bullet Puller Warning-figure-1.jpg  
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Last edited by unclenick; 08-20-2014 at 04:00 AM. Reason: typos; replace lost images
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  #46  
Old 07-02-2013, 12:20 PM
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Shells going off: New one on me...

I've never given a single thought to using an on-press shell holder or even one of the flat Lee doo-dads for use in their priming tools in place of the collet in the 20-plus years I've been reloading. That's a new one on me. My procedure is to loosen the top of the kinetic puller 'bout a turn or so, push the round into the collet to where the collet has it in the rim, tighten up and bang the bullet out per normal. Neither the screw-on top nor the collet ever leaves the puller until the bullet is out of the case. I do this with .532" magnums, so shells having .473" heads will surrender to this technique just as well.

I bang the puller on the end of a piece of 2 x 2 stud about 18 inches long, which I hold in my fist. I think the "give" in my grasp is not as bad on the puller as it would be if I was banging against an immobile surface. It might take a few extra whacks, but it saves me $20 in buying a new puller every couple o' months...
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  #47  
Old 02-27-2014, 10:39 AM
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I'm no expert by any means bur it sounds to me the the shell shifted in the shell holder allowing theprimer to come into contact with the metal of the shell holder. I can also see where this might happen if theprimr was not fully seated in the primer pocket.
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  #48  
Old 04-30-2014, 07:17 AM
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inertial bullet puller

Back around 1960, old John Sherburn at Sherburn's Gunshop apprently broke the plastic on his bullet puller. He was an expert on his milling machine and lathe so apparently made a substitue out of metal. Maybe electrical conduit pipe. His cousin Paul Stewart called me to tell me John had spent over 3 hours on the operating table of the OR room at the local hospital while the MD's tried to pick out all of the pieces of metal scattered throughout his intestines. He survived, barely, and blamed the "accident" on some theory of friction between the old powder and primer components igniting and .......
I have my own design that looks like a large pair of pliers but does not mar the bullet. Lifts the bullet out, leaves the powder and primer in place, ready for me to seat the 150 grain Speer hunting bullet on top!! Jack in Eastern Oregon.

I do this with military AP and tracer rounds, then they feed through my two BAR 30-06 rifles.
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  #49  
Old 04-30-2014, 08:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaotica View Post
What's wrong with using the collet supplied? I've never ever felt the need to use a shell holder and can't really see why someone would. My Quinetics has functioned flawlessly for years.
I use the collet that comes with the puller and have no problem with it I had my since the 80's it is seen alot of use.That rubber band is a oil ring for the make I have it is not the same make as stated on here on Chaotica post.It is the kinetics one I have .
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  #50  
Old 05-03-2014, 11:24 AM
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Oldguide32,

Is your plier anything like the Davidson tools? I have both sizes and they work fine when I don't have enough pulls to want to set up the Hornady Cam-lock tool, and the bullet hasn't been in long enough to cold weld to the neck. I just run a cartridge up through the die thread in my Lee Classic cast, clamp the bullet with the Davidson and lower the ram, letting the press serve as the stop for the Davidson.
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  #51  
Old 05-03-2014, 04:15 PM
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bullet puller

Wow! I had never heard of a Davidson puller but the concept is the same. Mine looks somewhat different, back in 1952 I took a leafe out of a car spring and using a cutting torch cut out a design almost like the Davison. I drilled the hole at .3085 with two smaller holes on each side and cut slots to all 3 holes so there was some spring and room to grip the bullet. looks crude but works like a charm. I would like to make one soon for 7mm and 8mm. Jack
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  #52  
Old 08-04-2014, 02:40 PM
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I have not seen this mentioned so here goes. It appears that part of the problem might be using heavy hammer (puller) blows to dislodge the bullet. A series of light bouncing taps (10-12, depending on crimp) are sufficient to dislodge the bullet, and are less likely to cause a scenario like the one described by the OP.
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  #53  
Old 08-17-2014, 05:12 PM
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what would you be pulling so many bullets for? I probably have not had occasion to pull more than a few score, in the loading of well over 100,000 rds.

I"ve deliberately detonated primers with a blow of a hammer, and some of them are definitely harder to set off than others. The old Alcan primers were soft, as is the small pistol primer favored in .38 wadcutter ammo. CCI magnum primers are tougher (at least, to crush with a hammer). that's the only test I ever did on such things.

possibly some sort of hard debris was involved? When the cartridge rebounded from compression, it struck the debris (or was struck by the debris and detonated.

Last edited by unclenick; 08-20-2014 at 03:44 AM. Reason: merge posts that work as one.
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  #54  
Old 08-20-2014, 05:00 AM
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I've pulled whole cases of surplus ammo down before when there was evidence of the powder deteriorating or when I only wanted to salvage bullets or cases.

If you are referring to the original post, I just restored images in my posts #10 and #45 that system upgrades had apparently corrupted. See if they make the problem any clearer? This was the combination of a high primer with an improper shell holder oriented to allow the cartridge to slip out of line, and possibly a loose cap.
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  #55  
Old 11-16-2014, 10:16 AM
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Just to think a bit; I would put a cartridge into the end of a six point end wrench and hold my finger on the cartridge while I whacked the edge of the wrench across an angle iron before i got tired of sore fingers and bought a hammer type bullet puller.Yeah I am a Tightwad!
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