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  #1  
Old 09-26-2008, 03:18 PM
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Inertial Bullet Puller Warning


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To minimize fumbling, a common practice is to use a shell holder in place of the O-ring collets supplied with plastic hammer style inertial bullet pullers. It turns out this can be DANGEROUS. Board member MtJerry describes why in the thread quoted below. You have to read the thread down to MtJerry's final posts to see what the problem is:

Quote:
Originally Posted by MtJerry
I had an accident using a shell-holder instead of the supplied collet. The accident almost cost me my kids. Please don't do this. It SIGNIFICANTLY increases the risk of discharging the round in the puller.

First Post

I was in the garage with my boys waiting for the school bus to pick them up for their summer swimming program and I was pulling some 45ACP with a Frankford Arsenal Inertial Bullet Puller (hammer type) and I had primer detonation that set off the round.

The scariest part of this deal was that my boys were standing right next to me when it happened. When the round went off, they scattered. And to be quite honest, I ran too.

I quickly checked my boys who were uninjured (thank God), but understandably shaken and scared.

After spending some time calming them down, I started trying to piece together what happened.

I have no idea what caused this. I have had this pullet for about 3 years and have used regularly without a problem.

The round was as I said a 45ACP (unknown brass because I can't find it) loaded with a 200gr Hornady Combat/target SWC, 5.5gr of W231, and a CCI LP primer.

The round went off on about the third blow.

I found the pieces of the Intertial Puller and the only damage is a large crack in the top locking collar as seen below:



And here is the indentation made by it when it struck the ceiling of my garage:



I still have not found the collet that was holding the base of the brass, or the brass itself. I am SURE it didn't "grenade" as the hammer portion of the tool is undamaged and none of us received any injuries.

Now, what did I learn from this? I will NEVER use an inertial puller again. I am a safe reloader and when my boys are helping me, I am extra safe. I am at a loss for what happened in this case. If anyone has any ideas, let me know.

I need some coffee ....


Second Post

Some more pieces of the puzzle. I spend almost an hour looking in my garage after coming home from work and FINALLY found the bullet, shell casing and the collet.

And what I found really frightened me more. The case did indeed "grenade" as it left the inertial puller. And I found the bullet in the ATTIC of my garage. I found a small hole where it passed thru the sheetrock, pulled out the ladder and found it laying in the insulation.

Apparently my sons were in serious danger when this occured, fortunately all these pieces were found in the opposite direction from where they were standing.



Here is a look at the primer ... It has a horseshoe shaped crease in it. I have no idea what may have caused it.




Third Post

Ok, I think I solved this mystery ...

First of all, I still think I had a primer that was not fully seated.

And second of all I created an unsafe set-up by not using the proper equipment. Instead of using the collet supplied with the puller, I was using an RCBS shell holder (proper size for the caliber). THis is a common practice that others have used and I myself have used it for several years. The collet supplied has three pieces to it that are held together with a rubber band thingie ... it can be a real pain at times.



When it is fitted correctly into the puller, it grabs the bullet by the rim, and leaves lots of room around the primer pocket and as you can see below, there is little chance of accidental firing of the primer even if it is seated high.



The RCBS shell holder holds the case by the rim as well, BUT it severly reduces the free space around the primer pocket ...



... and when it is placed in the puller it is possible for the primer to shift enough to get the primer underneath the lip of the shell holder.



So, in short this accident was my fault, not the equipment's.

There are a lot of "shortcuts" out there in the reloading world, and this is one that is dangerous and should not be practiced.

I learned a valuable lesson ... and I hope someone learns from my mistake. Please be safe out there.
Thanks for the warning, Jerry!
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Last edited by unclenick; 07-23-2011 at 02:13 PM. Reason: typo fix
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  #2  
Old 09-26-2008, 03:54 PM
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That is interesting Nick. I've often used a shell holder in mine instead of those durn rubber banded collet shell holders. I sure can see where that's not a good practice from the fella's post and the results. I don't often pull bullets, but when I do I always just slip in a shell holder instead of the collet. I wouldn't want to duplicate his experience.

Believe I'll park the hammer shell holder and just get a few more collets in the calibers I shoot for the press mounted bullet puller.

Thanks for the heads up.
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  #3  
Old 09-26-2008, 04:15 PM
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I have used inertia bullet pullers for many years with no difficulty. I have never heard of using a shell holder in place of the collet. I need to get out more…

It is a very unusual accident and does demonstrate the strength of certain types of plastic.

We’ve all heard the saying: “Why settle for imitations when you can have genuine plastic…”
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Last edited by unclenick; 09-27-2008 at 06:18 AM. Reason: formatting fix
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Old 09-26-2008, 06:19 PM
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Am I reading things wrong or did the guy strike the primer end of the "hammer"? How could the bullet end up in the attic if he used the bullet puller correctly? I have exactly the same bullet puller. You are supposed to strike the rounded nose which is the outside of a small cup that catches the bullet and powder while the primer end is up. On second thought, most of my shell holders have a little up and down play when engaged on the case rim. Did he use the "hammer" correctly and have the cartridge rebound a little while the rim was engaged but not centered, maybe detonating a high primer?

I won't throw mine away but I will wear eye and face protection when I use it and I will make sure no one is near me and I will certainly only use the collets that the manufacturer provided.
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  #5  
Old 09-26-2008, 08:12 PM
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The sky is not falling and the plastic does a great job when it comes to impact which had nothing to do with containing anything, I do not think a lot of thought went into discerning fact from fiction, truth from nonsense. Read Richard Lee's book on the sequence of events when pressure builds and the required amount of pressure to move the bullet out of the case and into the barrel, Richard Lee is a big fan of crimps.

The man was pulling bullets, he did not say why but is he had a high primer and decided to brake the cartridge down with an inertia puller, a bad thing can happen, the primer is installed, powder was added and a bullet was seated, while all of these events were going on, powder was trickling through the flash hole, once that happens, there is no room for the primer to move forward, the hammer people can not protect other people from them self but they did put a hole in the hammer retaining cap for just an event, I will continue using shell holders in the hammer, the 3 piece Collete can go in three directions if there could be an explosion, a one piece shell holder with the hole trough the center will allow the primer to exit.

Do not try to seat a primer after powder and bullet are added because of the powder trickling through the flash hole, if someone does not think this happens, leave the primer out, charge with powder and bullet, then stand on its base, or shake the case.

F. Guffey
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  #6  
Old 09-26-2008, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unclenick View Post
To minimize fumbling, a common practice is to use a shell holder in place of the O-ring collets supplied with plastic hammer style inertial bullet pullers. It turns out this can be DANGEROUS. Board member MtJerry describes why in the thread linked to below. You have to read the thread down to MtJerry's final posts to see what the problem is:


MtJerry:
I had an accident using a shell-holder instead of the supplied collet. The accident almost cost me my kids. Please don't do this. It SIGNIFICANTLY increases the risk of discharging the round in the puller.
Here is a link to my story on another board I frequent:
http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com...light=accident <!-- / message --><!-- controls -->
What does the subsequent post by Mtjerry have to do with the original post in this thread? The original poster said:

"I still have not found the collet that was holding the base of the brass, or the brass itself. "


Note he said he was using the collet and from the description he was using the tool correctly. I was impressed by his allusion to how much he uses it though. These tools are intended for occasional use, not wholesale dismantling of ammunition.

This is an extremely rare occurrence, but we do have to remember that primers are subject to ignition from several sources, percussion is only the most likely and intended source. They are also subject to heat and shock. My guess is he has the habit of trying to get the bullet out with one blow instead of several moderate ones. The last way not only imposes much less shock to the primer, it is also much easier on the tool.

Why do you drag Mtjerry's comments about obvious mis-use of a similar tool into the discussion? And for Fred, the poster did not say the bullet ended up in the attic, but rather that the nut from the puller had struck the ceiling.

The thing this incident points out, although possibly unintentionally, is how safe these tools are, even if a cartridge does happen to fire. The nut, collet and obviously the case were projected upward against the ceiling. The usual and instinctive method of using a hammer-like device is to swing it with the arm extended and in a vertical plane. The first keeps you from having any part of your body over the tool, and it leaves the tool in position so if exactly what did happen does happen it will discharge in what is the most likely to be safe direction, up. Remember the safety admonition to always keep your muzzle up? With a rifle cartridge it is likely there would have been no ignition, or a very low-grade one, of the powder charge and only the primer would have fired. Startling of course, but hardly life threatening if the base of the cartridge (nut end of the tool) was pointed up, as it almost must be during use of the tool.
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  #7  
Old 09-27-2008, 06:03 AM
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ALJ8944,
"The thing this incident points out, although possibly unintentionally, is how safe these tools are, even if a cartridge does happen to fire-"
Rather than say 'You can say that again' I said it for you (quote), on another thread, I suggeste the use of shell holders by Lee, 9 piece set for the hand primer $15.00 - or +. , that thread could have nothing to with this thread
Tonight I used a RCBS #4 shell holder for pulling 10 Norma 308 Norma Mag cartridges, I shook the cases and did not hear or feel powder moving, I pulled the bullets and was going to check the powder weight ect., when I tried to dump the powder into the powder pan, nothing came out, strange, very strange. This left me with a box of new unfired loaded Norma and not enough cases to test fire at the range, I took 50 7 Remington mag cases, WW Super, RP, Norma and RP Norma (cases with Norma head stamps), I necked the 7MM Remington cases to 308 and sized them checked for length, cleaned etc., and loaded. The Remington Mag cases are shorter but I am putting another rifle togather using the 7 Remington dimentions in a M1917 barrel and installing it on a P14, If accuracy is there I should be able to make a sizer die out of a full length 7 Rem. Mag sizing die. One of the other rifles is a abondend Mauser, it was left in Yugogalsivia, it then became a Yugo 44 in 7X57, very nice on the sides and top, and inside, Ugly on the bottom (receiver). One is a P14 DP with a full length 30/06 barrel with the custom paint job (red with white stripe)and on a 5-D-PSquare" stock, another is a Rock Island 03, scoped etc., somewhere down the line I have a Turk 38 military chambered to 8/06, , I ran out of scopes, if accuracy is not there, I have two 6.5X55 full length barrels that will fit the receiver, then accuracy will pick up.

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  #8  
Old 09-27-2008, 07:37 AM
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ALK, you didn't read that linked thread far enough. He later found the ruptured case, the bullet and the shellholder he used. He used the visible evidence to deduce a plausible theory of what happened.

As to how the bullet flew up through the ceiling, that isn't hard to imagine: it rebounded off the inside bottom of the puller with sufficient velocity to fly upwards. If you look at the photo of the bullet, it is clearly rounded at the nose - just about the same profile as the inside bottom of a puller.
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  #9  
Old 09-27-2008, 08:07 AM
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I have an RCBS hammer-type and I never thought to use a shell holder either, good thing I guess....
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Old 09-27-2008, 08:43 AM
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Alk8944,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alk8944 View Post
The original poster said:

"I still have not found the collet that was holding the base of the brass, or the brass itself. "

Note he said he was using the collet and from the description he was using the tool correctly. . .
If you followed the link, you'll know MtJerry was also the original poster in that thread. If you followed my direction to read all his posts, when you got to post #20 you'd have found he misspoke (or miswrote, I suppose) and was actually using the shell holder and not the collet.


Fred,

When you look at the burst case, you realize the gas vented around the bullet and pressurized the lower part of the puller, making it serve as a kind of loose fitting barrel. That thrust upward until the retaining cap cracked and let go of the thread and allowed the pressure to shoot everything into the ceiling.

Why did the case blow instead of just popping the bullet out? Fguffy answered that. W231 is a fine ball powder, enough of it leaked into the primer pocket to create a kind of über Primer that lit the rest of the powder up fast.


Fguffy,

I'm with you all the way through your second paragraph until the last sentence about the shell holder hole letting the primer blow out. Follow the link in post 1 of this thread and look at the pictures in MtJerry's post #20. The primer did not blow out the hole because the shell holder blocked it. MtJerry's whole point about the risk with the high primer in the puller is the cartridge had enough wiggle room in the plastic puller barrel to slide toward the shell holder's insertion opening far enough so the edge the hole partly covered the high primer.


For anyone not following all this, please examine at the illustration below:



Attached Thumbnails
Inertial Bullet Puller Warning-shell-holder-inertial-puller-problem.gif  
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Last edited by unclenick; 08-20-2014 at 05:53 AM. Reason: Restore image lost in system upgrades
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  #11  
Old 09-27-2008, 08:55 AM
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AVIVII, ALK8944 wants to know what the shell holder had to with the 'accident' with an accident to draw any conclusion, the person telling the story must get his story straight. If someone does not agree with using a shell holder to hold the case, do not use the shell holder, in any case the shell holder, when used does not set on the primer, if the primer wants to exit, there is a hole, in any case both the 3 part Collete and shell holder could leave out the top, the wedging effect of the Collete could cause the Collete to separate from the retainers, instead of looking for one shell holder, he is looking for 3 pieces (shrapnel).

F. Guffey
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Old 09-27-2008, 09:12 AM
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Superb illustration, as always, Nick.

What I still don't "get" is how the shellholder is supposed to "slam down" on the round. The round is supported only by the holder against gravity and impact forces. So what holds it "up" to be slammed into? Added: Also, the shellholder of whichever type is sandwiched tightly between the threaded cap and the puller body and cannot move. The only object with any possible movement is the round itself, and it is supported only by its rim/extraction groove.

If anything, I'd postulate that the imprint noted in the primer is due to the case being forced up into the holder AFTER ignition and by gas pressure. Ignition thus would be due to the effect of a high primer slamming down against its own anvil (aided perhaps by a slightly loose primer pocket), and not due to an impact by the holder. The primer would have ignited whether held by a shellholder or the supplied collett in that scenario. Perhaps it is unfair to blame the shellholder versus a collett if that's the case.
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Last edited by Rocky Raab; 09-27-2008 at 09:20 AM. Reason: add a sentence.
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Old 09-27-2008, 09:15 AM
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Thanks for posting this!

I never would have thouight of using a shell holder to pull rounds! I guess I've gotten pretty good at using the three piece rubber band gizmo. It works just fine once you get used to it.
The big thing I take away from here is to NEVER RESEAT A PRIMER ONCE THE ROUND HAS BEEN FILLED WITH POWDER!
I never even thought of powder filling up the primer pocket, and this causing a detonation if the primer is reseated.
I just got done doing this exact same thing to about 200 rounds in my Dillon RL-550! I pride myself on producing good looking and good performing ammo.
Something didn't look right on the latest batch of .45 Long Colts, so I took a closer look and found the primers were all seated at a distinct angle. Some were actually high, so I ran the whole bunch back through FILLED WITH POWDER to reseat them. NEVER AGAIN! I count myself lucky that I didn't have any accidents, and won't be reseating anymore odd primers.
I still don't know why the Dillon did what it did, but the problem is solved. The priming pin appears bent at a distinct angle off of 90 degrees, so it's crooked, allowing the primers to be seated at an angle.
I carefully filed down the primer pin so the angle on it came out flat in a horizontal plane. Then I touched it up with 400 and 1500 grit sand paper. I tightened up the shell plate so there was no wiggle, and also needed to rotate the priming pin 90 degrees so that the highest part of it now is furthest away from the center of the shell plate.
I now have absolutely flat, level primers.
Still, this whole thing bothers me and I'll have to call Dillon to find out what happened.
Thanks again for the "heads up" guys! You've helped me to reload in a safer manner...

Happy Shootin'! -Tom
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Old 09-27-2008, 01:51 PM
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I would just like to reference the unclenick-ism "uber-primer"

Excellent illistration though, thanks.
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Old 09-27-2008, 02:37 PM
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Rocky,

You make a good point. Of course, we don't know that he had the cap on tight, but if he did, then some other mechanism was at work? If he didn't, it was likely a contributing factor. Another possibility is the plastic has enough elasticity and deforms enough on impact to snap back, actually rebounding the cartridge upward against the shell holder. That may even be part of what makes it work?

It should be possible to test that hypothesis by making up a dummy to pull and putting some thin lead shim or soldering wire between the casehead and the shell holder to see if whacking flattens it out? Indeed, I headed downstairs to try the experiment myself, but found my inertial puller has gone under deep cover. I haven’t needed it for awhile, and no doubt it is in one of the plastic bins I bought for organizing my tools. It is astounding how many I’ve organized into complete invisibility.
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Old 09-27-2008, 07:28 PM
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I was using my midway puller three days ago and have made a habit of checking to make sure the cap is tight after every impact but the last two impacts i did not check the cap and the cap backed off enough that the cap and collet along with the cartridge were scattered! I was outside using an oak log for "impacting" and i found one piece of the collet but the cartridge was not located and pieces of the cap hit me and i could have had an eye injury had i not been wearing eye protection. The cartridge was a 30-30 that i found which had the bullet seated almost completely inside the case only the nose was visible so if it had went off i could have been seriously injured or worse! I have been using that old midway puller for years but am now going to buy a hornady puller.
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Old 09-28-2008, 07:23 AM
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I wondered about the cap backing off, especially with repeated impacts deforming the plastic. It's a little like a poorly designed impact wrench, with the pitch angle of the threads translating a little bit of turning force with each blow. That may have happened to MtJerry, too, giving the shell holder room to move. His event was on the third impact. It is a simpler explanation than my rebound theory, and, by the law of parsimony (i.e., Ockam's razor) more likely to be true. Nonetheless, for clarification, did the parts take off and scatter at the impact of a downstroke? It sounds like they did, in which case the rebound energy is definitely in play.

With a bullet down in the neck, the Hornady tool wouldn't have helped you out. It needs some place to get hold of the bullet. But using the impact tool occasionally rather than depending on it primarily, will still reduce your exposure. Besides, I think you'll enjoy how much quicker and easier the Hornady is to use when the bullet offers it purchase.
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Last edited by unclenick; 09-28-2008 at 07:27 AM.
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Old 09-28-2008, 08:41 AM
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This type of incident was also reported on www.surplusrifles.com message board. Someone was using an impact pullet to pull bullets from some 'training' type of military surplus ammo that was using extremely light-for-caliber bullets.

Obviously that would require a lot more hammering than say a 500gr. bullet in a .458 Win Mag.

I don't even bother to try to use impact pullers with light bullets - too much hammering!
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Old 09-28-2008, 08:45 AM
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would an o-ring used as lock-washer under the cap prevent it from backing off? Maybe there should be a design change with a locking mechanism?
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Old 09-28-2008, 11:01 AM
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I've pulled probably a couple thousand bullets from cartridges over the years with the hammer type puller - all with no incident of any kind.

As in ALL aspects of reloading, you have to aware of what you're doing and practice a little common sense. Use ONLY the parts/equipment supplied by the manufacturer and use it properly.

With the inertial puller, I always check the lock cap after each blow to assure the nut is tight. Using the proper sized collet is a must. Hit the mallet head on something that is solid such as seasoned wood. I have a piece of seasoned red oak that is 4"x6"x12".
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