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25 caliber.....25-08 ?

22K views 43 replies 27 participants last post by  nachogrande 
#1 ·
I'm looking for a good/great 25 caliber dual purpose rifle. I like the 26 caliber, however - the smallest available bullets are really too big for medium sized varmints, so 25 caliber gets the nod.

The 257 Roberts interests me, however, the only current manufactured rifles are the wood stocked M77 Mk II and while I've owned Rugers in the past and liked them, I'm not sure the MkII is what I want.

Anyway - has anyone built a 25 caliber on the 308 case ?

Regards, Vic
 
#3 ·
Vic, Had one put together on an Rem 722 action 1/14 twist to shoot light bullets, get a 1/10-1/12 twist if you want to use heavy bullets. It is a great round and powder efficent. But you will spend some money having your rifle rebarreled and buying dies.
I use .308 cases and neck them down or you can use .243 and neck up. may have to do some neck turning or trimming after sizing.

As Blackhawk44 pointed out do a search for .25Souper or 25/08 we discussed it here not long ago.

Here is a good link and rocky is a member here and this is on of his favorite wildcats

http://www.reloadingroom.com/page10.html

arky65
 
#4 ·
Wow ! I checked out the article by Rocky.....actually - I'll be reading it and re-reading it for the rest of the afternoon/evening ! I didn't think that what I was inquiring about was "new", but I sure didn't think it had this much history. I do have P.O. Ackley's books, Vol I & II and have read a little about wildcat cartridges.....guess I just never considered myself "one of them".

Thanks for the info and lesson on the 25-08. Now I need to think about what rifle I'd like to have for rebarreling - I reckon.

Regards, Vic
 
#6 ·
Another cartridge to consider is the .257 DGR which is based on a .260 Rem necked to .257 and the shoulder bumped back to slightly lengthen the neck. The designer is Duane Spooner in ND. He can be reached at "www.duanesguns.com". Duane has dies by Hornady for sale and also has some loading data available.
 
#7 ·
Have you considered the 25 WSSM? 25-06 ballistics from a super-short action, and you could always download it to 257 Roberts or Souper velocities. The cost of building a wildcat is significant compared a production rifle.

I am considering a 25 WSSM upper for my AR-15. The only thing keeping me from it is that I am waiting for the 6.5/264 WSSM to hit the market. I might be waiting for a very long time because it doesn't look like it is going to happen any time soon, or even ever.

I could always neck-up the 25 WSSM to 6.5mm and have an upper chambered for it, but the cost does not justify it, to me anyway.

Back to your .257, Browning chambers the A-bolt in 25 WSSM in the Hunter, Medallion and Micro Hunter. That Micro is a short, slick, svette little bolt gun.
 
#8 ·
Nitro, if the WSSM round lasts another ten years, I'd agree with you. But I don't think they are wildly popular now - and with Winchester gone, they may never get popular. So I think I'd hesitate before buying a rifle that can't be chambered for anything else and that uses cases that can't be made from anything else. (WSSM guns have a unique action length, unique magazine configuration and unique boltface size, I believe.)

But standard short-action rifles with .473" head diameter boltfaces -- as well as numerous sources of brass -- will be around forever. For those reasons, I'd recommend a more standard quarter bore, be that a .250 Savage, a Roberts, a .25-06 or even a .25-308.
 
#11 ·
Nitro, if the WSSM round lasts another ten years, I'd agree with you. But I don't think they are wildly popular now - and with Winchester gone, they may never get popular. So I think I'd hesitate before buying a rifle that can't be chambered for anything else and that uses cases that can't be made from anything else. (WSSM guns have a unique action length, unique magazine configuration and unique boltface size, I believe.)

But standard short-action rifles with .473" head diameter boltfaces -- as well as numerous sources of brass -- will be around forever. For those reasons, I'd recommend a more standard quarter bore, be that a .250 Savage, a Roberts, a .25-06 or even a .25-308.

Im bringing this up for two reasons. One, to find info on the .25-308, and two to prove that Rocky was right, and the WSSM's are pretty dead.
 
#10 ·
The.25 WSSM uses a .535" cartridge rim while nominal belted magnum cartridges run .532", not a significant difference. Browning offers their bolt gun in the WSSM series cartridges. Ammo shouldn't be a problem for the handloader, just purchase a couple thousand cases at the outset, (you should see my stock of .348 Winchester cases for the same reason). I do believe Cooper Firearms introduced the Model 16 in the entire WSSM series last year. This cartridge should be around for awhile. Cases can be formed from any of the Winchester Short Magnum series of brass, or even the Remington SAUM in a pinch. This is a good cartridge that should have it's chance to stand on its own merits, rather than allow rumors of it's demise kill it off, as happened with the .244/6mm Remington.
 
#13 ·
Thanks, shane. Yes, I had to rename the pages.

One other observation about the 25 WSSM: the brass on all the WSM and WSSM rounds is VERY thick, to hold the high pressures. (65,000 psi). That means they do NOT respond well to reduced loads, because those cases simply don't expand to seal the chamber with lower pressures. So you pretty much have to run them at full throttle all the time. That's the main reason I declined buying one.

And it is true that the boltface is only marginally different from magnum rounds - but the action is so short you couldn't get anything else to fit them but the WSSM. It's a non-convertible rifle, pure and simple.
 
#17 ·
My question is this. Why the short magnums? The only way the .25 WSSM can get near the 25-06 is severe overloading. Put them to the same PSI abd the OLD 25-06 kicks major ***. That goes for all WSM and WSSM shells. Just a frigging gimmick and easily proven. In my case, the .25WSSM is a .257 Rob. I will pound it with the 25-06.
 
#18 ·
I once had a 25/06 in a savage rifle. I forget the model, probably a 112 ss. Anyhow it was probably the most accurate rifle out of the box I ever ownd. It was a good rile but my 257 weatherby beat it across the croney by 250 fps or better. with a little tweeking my Mk.5 257 shoots between 1/2 and3/4 moa my 257 vanguard will do almost as good. I personally wouldn't invest in a short magnum. I don't need them, have plenty of the long ones
 
#19 ·
One might make the argument that if you held the .25-06 to the same pressures as the 250 Savage, it wouldn't be very impressive, either. The point is that the WSM and WSSM rounds have very thick cases specifically designed to be safe at 65,000 psi.

The point is not that any quarter-bore is "better" than another, but that each has its particular usage niche. If mostest fastest is the only criteria, then they'd only make one round in each caliber, and it would have the biggest case possible. They don't. They make lots of different rounds in each bore diameter. All of them are good or even best at something - but not the same something.
 
#20 ·
JSR76 where are you getting your information from? The 25WSSM and 25-06 are just about identical in performance. The 25-06 used to have a a slight edge with heavier bullets but powders like Reloader 17 take that edge away and once again they are identical in performance. I have a few rifles in both calibers and can attest they are both equally great performers.
 
#21 ·
Like I said, equal performers with the WSSM loaded to higher pressures. All things equal the old '06 is more powerful. The WSSM can't keep up above 100 grains anyway you look at it. However, I wish I could luck into a 25 WSSM for a good price. I'm a huge .25 fan. I want them all, and the WSSM is good on performance, even if not on popularity.:p
 
#23 ·
With mine (to shorten the tale) I simply started with 250 Savage data and worked up until I was happy with the accuracy. If you can find 250AI data, it is virtually identical with the 25 Souper. Good choices for the 100-gr are RL-19, 4350 and W760. I suspect that Ramshot Big Game would be ideal.
 
#25 ·
rino, check out Duane Spooners website mentioned earlier. He has load data for his .257 DGR which is very similar to the 25-08 Souper. Google Duane Spooner or .257 DGR. The .257 DGR is formed from a .260 Rem case and necked to .257 and the shoulder pushed back slightly to make a longer neck. He has quite a bit of data there.
 
#26 ·
I believe the WSM AND WSSM cartridges are going to make a small come back in the next couple of years. The reason being that they can make honest big game rifles out of standard AR lowers. Olympic Arms is looking like they are making some great uppers to compete with any big game rifle.

AL
 
#27 ·
My Savage 112 26" 25-06 does over 3350 FPS and stays WELL under 1/2 inch groups. All at original pressures. NO Souper or Super short will do THAT. If I built a stout rifle for those pressure, or just re chamber and reload, the old '06 case will hammer the new stuff. Capacity and pressure rule! You CANNOT lie about it. GIMMICK. They WILL die off very shortly.;)
 
#29 ·
Please note that I'm not a fan of the WSSM line, but I think you're ignoring the basic metallurgy involved in this equation. The 25'-06 CASE is meant to work around 55,000psi, while the 25WSSM is meant to work around 65,000psi. The powder burned in the 25/06 (longer duration) means it can generate the same velocity, at 55K, that the 25WSSM generates with a shorter burn, at 65K. Barrel length is usually crucial, in this scenario.

Also, you need to understand that you cannot SAFELY subject the case of the 25/06 to the same pressure as the 25WSSM...the case will blow up, and might take your rifle right along with it! By the same token, the very sturdy brass of the 25WSSM almost mandates that you keep pressures pretty high, or else the case won't seal the firing chamber properly, resulting in inconsistent velocity and accuracy.

So, don't try to make one rifle cartridge do what another cartridge is designed for...just use what you have for what it is and don't waste time/energy bashing something else. The inherent problems with the WSSM line will ensure they don't endure, which is evident by the fact the neither Winchester, nor Browning, is offering them in this year's lineup. Also, the enthusiasm shown by the AR crowd will be enough to generate some business for custom builders, but nowhere near enough to save these cartridges.

In order to make a splash in the firearms world, a cartridge has to do something other cartridges don't do quite as well. That can be achieving higher speeds or shooting a larger bullet or generating less recoil. In the case of the WSSM line, they haven't met any of these criterion and what's worse, the problems with how they feed and the reputation they got, early on, for burning up barrels, has pretty much doomed them to failure.

Now, the 25-08 is a cartridge that makes a great deal of sense, to me. The 243Winchester and 260Remington are both successful, (to say nothing of the excellent 7/08 round!) so why wouldn't the caliber in-between work well? My guess is that the 25-08 would offer virtually no improvement over the 257Roberts, and it hasn't sold well in years, so gun companies are reluctant to beat that horse.

Personally, I think the smaller offerings from the 308 family are better than the original because a 30 caliber ought to have a little more powder than the .308Winchester brings to the table...I own a .243 and would buy any of the necked down options before the parent cartridge, including a 25-08!
 
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