Both are great calibers in the right gun. Pick the right gun for your needs. The frame size of these two calibers is often different. Self-defense: tie. Target: tie. If you are not a reloader: 45ACP - more options.

 

I am looking into buying my first pistol and as I only have experience with revolvers am seekling some info. I have been told that the .40 SW is about on par with the .45 ACP, is this true? I don't have any load books that are new enouf to list the .40 SW to compare the two. Your knowledge would be welcomed. Thanks leon.

IF you avoid the bullet diameter differnce, then the .40 can shoot 180's about as fast as .45acp's can shoot 185's...if you include the 45acp +P loadigns, the slight edge in "paper power" of the 45acp grows larger.

But the .45 can sling heavier bullets than the .40SW can (although a bit slower than the 185's) and many (myself included) don't think the .40SW is at it's best with 180's...the 135-155gr. area seems the 40's best balance.

"Paper Power" isn't a as good an indicator of actual defense shooting results as advertizers weould like you to believe. Given a choice, find selecting the larger bullet is seldom a bad idea.

 

I

"Paper Power" isn't a as good an indicator of actual defense shooting results as advertizers weould like you to believe. .

Where I live a fleeing felon in a car decided to shoot it out with the police. I don't remember the final round count, but it was after he had been struck six or seven times by those awesome .40 caliber rounds that his own gun ran empty and he charged the police, who had to beat him with nightsticks, flashlights and ASP batons to subdue him and handcuff him.

One of the cops in the incident was so shook up he wanted to go get his dad's .357 revolver and get permission to carry it on duty instead of the awesome , amazing .40.

At first, I thought it was just a fluke.

Then a few weeks later a local nitwit shot himself in the leg with his .40 caliber tactical tupperware, drove to the hospital, parked about a 3/4 of a mile away at the far endo f the parking lot in the only available space and walked to the emergency room.

So much for the MYTH of .40 caliber stopping power. I promptly wrapped up my own and put it back in the safe and went back to the .45.

There are only a few advantages to a .40 over a .45.
If you roll your own, I guess lead and powder would be cheaper. If you have friends in law enforcement who share training ammo, that would be another. If there is a specific type of gun that is not made in .45 like a Beretta, that would be another. Thats about it.

What is funny is that in the time frame of the two .40 shootings I mentioned above there were about three or four one-shot stops with 9mm pistols in my region.
The .40 is just so much ballistic baloney.
On the street it lacks the stopping power of the .45 and the magazine capacity of the 9mm. Its harder to hit with than either due to the extreme muzzle blast and enhanced recoil and it is very rough on guns.

If you are interested in self defense, buy a .45. If you want to plink, buy a 9mm (the ammo is cheaper). If you want to be trendy and brag to mall ninjas and chairborn rangers, buy all means go buy the amazing, awesome .40.

 

I personally prefer the .45 ACP. It's as proven as any cartridge could possibly be as a defensive round. There are no surprises in handloading, one of the reasons it excels as a target chambering. There are a wide variety of guns chambered in .45 ACP, so you'll almost certainly find one to your liking.

The .40 S&W is obviously newer without the .45's grand history. Many handloaders have reported an exceptionally fine line between a safe combination and one that creates excessive pressures. My own limited .40 S&W loading experience seems to support these contentions. Accuracy has been acceptable to good in the guns I've fired but not as good as most .45's I've handled. About the only advantage I see for the .40 is that it can be chambered in slightly smaller and lighter pistols than the .45. In my opinion, if concealed carry isn't a priority the choice is clear: .45 ACP

 

I am looking into buying my first pistol and as I only have experience with revolvers am seekling some info. I have been told that the .40 SW is about on par with the .45 ACP, is this true? I don't have any load books that are new enouf to list the .40 SW to compare the two. Your knowledge would be welcomed. Thanks leon.

Leon I prefer the 40SW to the 45 ACP for the fact that it is faster and has almost as nuch knock down. My recommendation to you is go with the 40 in a Glock 23 or my personal favorite and duty weapon is a Sig Pro SP2340. The gun is very accurate and never has failed me to date.

 

If it were me I'd vote .40, although there is nothing wrong with the .45, just personal preferance from personal expieriences from both cartridges. Something to consider is the 10mm, alot of companys have reduced the performance of this round for nancy wrists, however there are still many company's that load it to original specs. (ie DoubleTap Ammo, Buffalo Bore, etc.) It is very comparable to a .41mag when loaded properly. Another reason I suggest some consideration for this cartridge is you mentioned revolver. The wieght of anything more than a snubby will help reduce the recoil to something very delightful, and great follow up shots achived with the ballistics of the 135gr. 10mm make it IMO an ideal SD cartridge.

 

...the 10mm... alot of companys have reduced the performance of this round for nancy wrists, however there are still many company's that load it to original specs. (ie DoubleTap Ammo, Buffalo Bore, etc.) It is very comparable to a .41mag when loaded properly.

With all due respect, no it's not. Double Tap's 220-grain Precision FP is listed as 1125 fps; Buffalo Bore's 200-grain FMJ is listed as 1200 fps. I have chronographed several 210 to 225-grain .41 Magnum loads that exceed 1375 fps with a 4-5/8" Ruger and a couple of 4" Smith & Wessons but do not exceed published data or SAAMI pressure ceilings. Everyday factory 210-grain loads do 1300 fps. With respect to lighter-weight offerings, Double Tap's 180grain load using the Gold Dot clocks 1300 fps; Buffalo Bore's load using the same weight XTP does 1350 fps. The Winchester 175-grain Silvertip is listed as 1250 fps from a 4" vent barrel. My own very limited chronographing out of one 4" S&W says this is pretty accurate. But regardless, it is a "medium load" when compared to full-power lightweight .41 Magnums. A fully-stoked 170 or 175-grain .41 Magnum will easily do 1500+ fps.

But equally if not more important than velocity is bullet shape. I'd like to see the automatic that could feed the wide meplat bullets that are loaded into my sixguns. The Precision FP bullet and BB FMJ have rather small meplats so as to improve feeding. There are no such restrictions in a .41 Magnum revolver.

It is no trick at all for factory or handloaded .41 Magnums to have heavier bullets with better performing shapes at significantly higher velocity than the very hottest 10mm ammo.

 

.45 ACP. No others need apply. Bigger bullets equal bigger holes. Nothing really wrong with the .40 other than it is not a .45.
Given the .40 must expand 13% of its diameter to equal the .45 unexpanded, for my own way of thinking that gives the .45 a 13% head start considering on paper the .40 and .45 are pretty equal. Also, shoot two pistols of the same size and you will find the .45 actually shoots softer than the .40. Not really less recoil, but the recoil is not as fast.

 

40 Short&Weak vs. 45ACP

Had to get my 2 cents worth of this thread. The 10mm is a great round for self defense, I'd pick it over any other cartridge out there. 100 yards down range it has more kickbutt than the 45 out of the business end of the barrel.

But directly to your two choices, 40Short&Weak vs. the proven 45ACP. Pick the 45, you will not go wrong!

Hoopie,

 

It is more a choice of the 1911 style pistol vs the other types. The 45 has more power too. I like both my answers, I vote for the 45.

 

Bill, Magsafe as well as RBCD 10mm ammunition both exceed 1500fps as well. The latter is 77gr/2000+fps/1000+ftlbs. I didnt say they were equal to a 41mag, I stated "comparable" to. For self defense purposes its better to have a high velocity with a lighter grain bullet so upon pentetration the bullet can expand to its full potential. Having heavy grain bullets with the power you clarified from a .41mag has a very good chance of passing right through a 2 legged foe and wounding or killing a bystandard. Like I said Im not stating the 10mm is equal to a .41mag, but if I had to choose.40/.45/10mm, Id take the 10mm.

 

45

The 40 is a tweener. Doesn't have the capacity of the nine and doesn't have the abillity to hurl lead ingots like the 45. No such thing as an all around either. Go with the forty five. If your not convinced, go to an IPSC competition and watch the steel targets get shot. Everyone is shooting at or around the power factor and the 45 simply plows the targets.

Another thing to remember is that i you need more than 7+1 you should be looking for a long gun or street sweeper cause your out gunned. Nuff said.

 

Have to support the .40. Recoil is less, bullet technology allows you to have controlled expansion along with penetration, a new powder loads are getting more velocity. Plenty of choices for 165 grain bullets, optimum for all around performance, and accurate to boot. I've never really been a fan of the .45ACP, and think you'd be happier with the .40.
My .02; your results may vary.

 

Also, shoot two pistols of the same size and you will find the .45 actually shoots softer than the .40. Not really less recoil, but the recoil is not as fast.

Agreed. I've played with a few .45's and .40's, and I don't like the .40's that much. The recoil is fast and sharp, which I find uncomfortable. Especially in a thin-framed auto, it tends to dig into your hand. Slow, "blunt" recoil like the .45 is easier to handle for long shoots.

Plus, you just end up having more options. with a .45er.

 

capacity and lead=power

I like to look at as how to create engine horse power. There is just no substitution for cubic inches.

 

Leon, If you decide to take a serious look at the .45. Let me know, I have a "Everything you could possibly want to know about the 1911" Book. VERY informative, if you ask real nice I'll give it to you for the price of shippment.

 

If you are shooting, in self defense, at an attacker who is 100 yards away you don't need a pistol. You need a rifle.

 

The 45 and the 40 are capable of similar ballistics, similar weight bullets at similar velocities, the 40 handles light bullets well, the 45 handles the heavyweights better. The 40 was designed as a compromise between the 9 and the 45, bigger than a nine, more bullets in the gun than a 45. The sharper recoil of the 40 is a myth I don't understand, unless someone has repealed the laws of physics. Shooting similar weight bullets from guns that weight the same, their may be a tiny difference due to the higher gas recoil of the 40 (due to higher pressure) but you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference. I have owned both, and kept the 40, I like the five extra shots and the fully supported barrel, something many 45's DO NOT offer. Does it matter? When a case blows, you bet. I had that experience once, and I can assure you it's unpleasant. I also ran some overloads (wrong powder ) thru my 40 and didn't realize what had happened til I saw the oval-shaped primer pockets. An overload like that in a 1911 or revolver would have found me combing iron out of my whiskers, another experience I'd pass on. When the 40 forst came out all the 45ACP folks were pooh-poohing it, fifteen years later the 40 and 45 have very similar track records in actual shootings. Personally, I'd find a gun that fits your hand well, and not worry so much about the caliber. If you shoot it well, ballistics are secondary.

Papajohn the Pointyheaded Pundit

 

I lifted this from a paper/critique by the Dept. of Justice. Usually not a big fan of gov. studies, but this rings true to me:



Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed." Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.


Now I do find that last line to be important. Give an expanding 45cal bullet and an expanding .40caliber bullet, if they both have the ability to get to the other side, will take the one that starts out bigger.

 

Gentlemen,

I hate to add a firm maybe to a yes or no conversation, but I don't think there is enough difference between the two for too much consternation.

I'd recommend getting the pistol that fits your hand the best, and that the sights line up the easiest. I really don't beleive in power all that much, and espiecally when it applies to pistol cartridges. After all, its not how much postage you put on the package, its getting the package to the right address, right?

One man's opinion.

Steve

 

I have to agree with you Steve. That said it would depend on the PRIMARY intended use of the weapon as to what caliber to chose. If defense and CCW are the primary I would opt for the 40, smaller platform, larger mag cap. From a ballistic stand point I believe 40 has a SLIGHT edge, not enough to make a big differance. And yes the lighter 135-155 bullets are much better than the 180 unless you are hunting deer.

 

Have to support the .40. Recoil is less, bullet technology allows you to have controlled expansion along with penetration, a new powder loads are getting more velocity. Plenty of choices for 165 grain bullets, optimum for all around performance, and accurate to boot.

The 45 and the 40 are capable of similar ballistics, similar weight bullets at similar velocities, the 40 handles light bullets well, the 45 handles the heavyweights better.... The sharper recoil of the 40 is a myth I don't understand, unless someone has repealed the laws of physics.

I'd recommend getting the pistol that fits your hand the best, and that the sights line up the easiest. I really don't beleive in power all that much, and espiecally when it applies to pistol cartridges. After all, its not how much postage you put on the package, its getting the package to the right address, right?

Three excellent points of view.

This argument...harumph...discussion goes on probably as much as the 9 vs. 45 or the 44 vs.45 threads.

Owning a 40 and several 45's, my recommendation is this;
as White hunter said, get the gun that fits you, not you conforming to the gun. You'll regret it down the road when you find something you like more.
The 40 is a fine SD round. The law enforcement community has been using it with good results for many years now. I have shot thousands of 40's thru my Walther 99, a gun that can be tailored to your hand as simply as changing one of the three backstraps that come with it.
180 grain 40 caliber rounds feel no different recoil wise than 200 grain 45 rounds, given the same type of launching platform.

The 45 is time and "battle" tested. It's history is such that it almost borders on legendary, due to the venerable 1911 and the cartridge design itself.

45 rounds shot thru a 1911 type handgun will of course feel different than a 45 fired thru a glock or sig or.....Grip angles, goemetry, size of the firearm....all contributing factors of "felt" recoil.
40's thru my Browning hi-power feel like 45's.

165 grain 40's are a fine SD round. they have the speed and weight to get the job done, without creating the pressures of the 180's.

Everyone has their own opinion on what works best. Either will get the job done, let's hope you [we] never get put in the position to find out.

 

I went for both.

I would like to thank everybody for all there input on 40 S&W or 45 ACP. I looked at all the facts and went shoping today and came home with a 1911-A1 and have money down on a Walther P-99 in 40 S&W. I am Just thankfull I did not list a third or fourth option as I would be at the pawn shop trying to pawn my kids to put money down on all of them. Thanks again for all the advice.

God Bless, Leon

 

Now THATS the way to settle the issue once and for all; buy both and don't worry about it! Good job Leon, and let us know how everything goes.

I would like to thank everybody for all there input on 40 S&W or 45 ACP. I looked at all the facts and went shoping today and came home with a 1911-A1 and have money down on a Walther P-99 in 40 S&W. I am Just thankfull I did not list a third or fourth option as I would be at the pawn shop trying to pawn my kids to put money down on all of them. Thanks again for all the advice.

God Bless, Leon

 

Boy you sure pose a hard question. Both are good self defense rounds. Both come in a number of really good semi-auto pistols. Both can be had in large or small frame auto's. I have both, a large frame 1911 and a shorty fourty Smith 4013. Both are enjoyable to shoot.

I know that teaching someone to shoot the learning curve on the 40 is less than the learning curve on the big 45 because of recoil.

Everyone whom has talked about the 40 and 45 is correct. Keep one thing in mind if it is power your looking for get one of the short bbl 44 mag revolvers, it can't be beat. If you need a compact gun for ccw you might want a 40 or a 9mm.

I see you live in AK. If your looking for something for bear protection get the largest calibre you can shoot well, keeping in mind the bigger the weapon the harder to carry conceiled.

Man the 45 owners sure gave you a load of "I like it's"

Good luck in your quest

 

Boy wait till you shoot that Walther, yur gonna fall in love with how great it handles....