I was at Oak City Yewtaw Saturday at a live Cannon shoot. No-one could hit a two foot square target with their cannons, so I shot it with a 500 Smith and Wesson, and my long barrelled 30-30. I was amazed at the number of people who wouldn't dare shoot their 30-30's at distances over 100 yards, but I quickly had several shooters doing what I had done.
swampdoc
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Everyone has opinions and it is apparent no one is willing to change theirs on this issue. Let's just say plinking targets at far ranges with firearms generally meant for close shooting is fun and challenging, but no one should seriously consider hunting a living animal at ranges exceeding those that a reasonably sure kill would be made with the particular firearm.
This thread has no end, so for the sake of bandwidth it is being closed. Thanks to all who contributed.
This thread has no end, so for the sake of bandwidth it is being closed. Thanks to all who contributed.
The OP ask if a 30-30 bullet will kill a deer at 600-700 yard ranges. Yes it will. Should we take shots at that range? Never. As I stated before, there are too many other factors involved that can cause erratic shot placement. In my opinion, that applies to any hunting situation regardless of gun and caliber. Any hunter that cannot get closer should consider other hobbies.
"I have shot the 30 WCF (30-30) enough to know that in an accurate rifle it can take game beyond 500 yards, but there is the price of a large percentage of game being wounded, which is due to several factors. Foremost, however, is that most lever-action carbines are not capable of reliably placing bullets in the vitals at that distance, and the impact velocity is so low that bullet expansion is not reliable. These bullets are capable of killing even when not expanded, but the effect is much slower, sometimes requiring miles of tracking." ......Brian Pearce, Rifle Magazine, Sept. 2008.
I think that sums it up very well.
"I have shot the 30 WCF (30-30) enough to know that in an accurate rifle it can take game beyond 500 yards, but there is the price of a large percentage of game being wounded, which is due to several factors. Foremost, however, is that most lever-action carbines are not capable of reliably placing bullets in the vitals at that distance, and the impact velocity is so low that bullet expansion is not reliable. These bullets are capable of killing even when not expanded, but the effect is much slower, sometimes requiring miles of tracking." ......Brian Pearce, Rifle Magazine, Sept. 2008.
I think that sums it up very well.
Longrange Clean Kills With A 30-30
Back East there are places just as bare as Utah or Nevada, and shots are extremely long at the extremely skittish Whitetail. I normally load both the 30-06 and the 7mm Mauser down to about 2400 FPS using 168 HPBT's and I;ve never failled to get my meat. These bullets when pushed much faster can explode, thats why I go slower. But they are amazingly accurate. The Nosler 155 J4 can go at the verysame speed in a 30-30, so why not attempt the shot? Unethical? I wouldn,t attempt it with an inaccurate gun. But my primary targets at that range are metal five gallon buckets painted yellow!!!
Back East there are places just as bare as Utah or Nevada, and shots are extremely long at the extremely skittish Whitetail. I normally load both the 30-06 and the 7mm Mauser down to about 2400 FPS using 168 HPBT's and I;ve never failled to get my meat. These bullets when pushed much faster can explode, thats why I go slower. But they are amazingly accurate. The Nosler 155 J4 can go at the verysame speed in a 30-30, so why not attempt the shot? Unethical? I wouldn,t attempt it with an inaccurate gun. But my primary targets at that range are metal five gallon buckets painted yellow!!!
No one can ever be 100% certain, but when the odds of success are down in the single-digit range, that is completely irresponsible. My opinion.
I know guys that shoot long range, and they have the gear to do it. And practice a lot. And the odds are much, much better than a .30-30 at 500+ yards.....
I know guys that shoot long range, and they have the gear to do it. And practice a lot. And the odds are much, much better than a .30-30 at 500+ yards.....
If you zero a standard 170gr flat-nosed 30/30 bullet for 250 yards, (highly impractical to begin with) the bullet will reach a midpoint that is 7.5" high at 150 yards. From 250 yards to 500 yards, the bullet will fall 98", or 8'2", from line of sight. From 700 to 800 yards the amount of additional drop is 157 inches...call it an even 13 feet. The total drop from line of sight at 800 yards will be ~461 inches, or nearly 38.5 feet. These are sizable numbers, but they are still just numbers. The 338 Lapua has drop "numbers" too...they just happen to be a lot smaller. They must still be taken into account for long-range shooting.
With that being said, the 30/30 is a fine 800 yard deer gun, so long as the deer is made from plate steel and the shots are being made for fun, not on live game. At known distances, from bench positions, using much more powerful cartridges and with highly specialized sniper rifles, 800 yard shots are already somewhat challenging. With the 30/30, the challenges are magnified but largely the same. Distance, holdover and windage must be allowed for in order to place shots on the target.
If someone practiced regularly with a single-shot 30/30, shooting a pointed bullet designed for lower impact speeds, and went to the effort required to get the exact distance and windage for a deer at +/- 500 yards, there is nothing that says a shot could not be made. For a lever-action, using flat-nosed bullets, where the exact yardage is not known, common sense should prevail and much shorter shots be taken.
As Saskshooter pointed out...our responsibility as hunters is to take shots with a very high probability for success. If the odds are much higher that you'll wound your target than kill it with relatively expedience, it's time to do a little more actual hunting, first. As long as these threads are about "shooting" at long range, I think they're interesting. When someone tries to claim a 44 pistol or a lever-action 30/30 rifle is just fine for hunting at 500 yards or more, well I just have to
There...now BD will be satisfied.
With that being said, the 30/30 is a fine 800 yard deer gun, so long as the deer is made from plate steel and the shots are being made for fun, not on live game. At known distances, from bench positions, using much more powerful cartridges and with highly specialized sniper rifles, 800 yard shots are already somewhat challenging. With the 30/30, the challenges are magnified but largely the same. Distance, holdover and windage must be allowed for in order to place shots on the target.
If someone practiced regularly with a single-shot 30/30, shooting a pointed bullet designed for lower impact speeds, and went to the effort required to get the exact distance and windage for a deer at +/- 500 yards, there is nothing that says a shot could not be made. For a lever-action, using flat-nosed bullets, where the exact yardage is not known, common sense should prevail and much shorter shots be taken.
As Saskshooter pointed out...our responsibility as hunters is to take shots with a very high probability for success. If the odds are much higher that you'll wound your target than kill it with relatively expedience, it's time to do a little more actual hunting, first. As long as these threads are about "shooting" at long range, I think they're interesting. When someone tries to claim a 44 pistol or a lever-action 30/30 rifle is just fine for hunting at 500 yards or more, well I just have to
There...now BD will be satisfied.
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What's the matter with you guys? Do you need more practice? A couple of guys over on Leverguns.com. are "routinely" hitting pop cans at 250 to 300 yards. Offhand......with a Glock 19. You should be able to hit a pop can at 800 yards with a scope sighted rifle from the bench, "routinely". Are all a the better shooters (read that liars ) over on Paco Kelly's forum?
What's the matter with you guys? Do you need more practice? A couple of guys over on Leverguns.com. are "routinely" hitting pop cans at 250 to 300 yards. Offhand......with a Glock 19. You should be able to hit a pop can at 800 yards with a scope sighted rifle from the bench, "routinely". Are all a the better shooters (read that liars
) over on Paco Kelly's forum? .
If a bullet from a handgun traveling as slow as 800 fps will kill a deer, then why does a rifle bullet require a velocity of 2000 fps? Do we have a double standard for rifles and handguns? What exactly is a "clean kill"? Are you talking about instant kills? If any of you have ever actually killed very many deer you know that instant kills are few. One study by a game management team found that the deer traveled an average of 50 yards after being shot. The "bang flop" is more fantasy than fact.
I am not defending Swampdoc, I don't know how well he shoots. The rifle is capable with correct shot placement. Long range placement is beyond the ability of most shooters. If anyone thinks those old calibers don't shoot long range I would encourage you to attend the Quigley matches in Montana in June. You will be shocked.
If a bullet from a handgun traveling as slow as 800 fps will kill a deer, then why does a rifle bullet require a velocity of 2000 fps? Do we have a double standard for rifles and handguns? What exactly is a "clean kill"? Are you talking about instant kills? If any of you have ever actually killed very many deer you know that instant kills are few. One study by a game management team found that the deer traveled an average of 50 yards after being shot. The "bang flop" is more fantasy than fact.
I am not defending Swampdoc, I don't know how well he shoots. The rifle is capable with correct shot placement. Long range placement is beyond the ability of most shooters. If anyone thinks those old calibers don't shoot long range I would encourage you to attend the Quigley matches in Montana in June. You will be shocked.
Good friend has an H&R handi-rifle that will do 5 shots into a silver-dollar at 200 yards from a rest with good hand-loads.We never tried it further than that. I remember the bullet was the Nosler 170grain solid base. Was a boat-tail-flat-point designed for 30-30 speeds.
Looking back at some old notes, that Nosler was the only one we found that would do that well. I remember us "thinking" that the boat-tail "must have" made the difference at that distance? No other bullet that we tried did near as well!
Concidering all of this, I'd not even try to harvest a game animal beyond about 250 yards with the best 30-30 Winchester that I know of!
Also note that I don't shoot as well as I used to (and I'm NOT lucky).
30-30 just flat runs out of "poop" at long range no matter the bullet!
Cheezywan
Looking back at some old notes, that Nosler was the only one we found that would do that well. I remember us "thinking" that the boat-tail "must have" made the difference at that distance? No other bullet that we tried did near as well!
Concidering all of this, I'd not even try to harvest a game animal beyond about 250 yards with the best 30-30 Winchester that I know of!
Also note that I don't shoot as well as I used to (and I'm NOT lucky).
30-30 just flat runs out of "poop" at long range no matter the bullet!
Cheezywan
Talk about a rainbow connection. 30/30 at 800 yards wow that would require a very large holdover.
I have no doubt hits can be made but are we trying to make clean kills? Something about 1000 ft lbs of energy left to ensure sufficient energy. Apart from that while i love the 30/30 ( I have 5 of them) Most arn't that accurate. While 2-4 inches at 100 yards if fine for hunting at that range ( and I have along barreled Win 94 that will hold 1.5 inch groups at 100. Hitting something at 600 in a kill zone I would try beyound about 200 perhaps 250 yards with a 30/30.
Hitting a target isn;t the same as hitting and killing an animal. Or am I just the only one concerned about getting a clean kill?
I have no doubt hits can be made but are we trying to make clean kills? Something about 1000 ft lbs of energy left to ensure sufficient energy. Apart from that while i love the 30/30 ( I have 5 of them) Most arn't that accurate. While 2-4 inches at 100 yards if fine for hunting at that range ( and I have along barreled Win 94 that will hold 1.5 inch groups at 100. Hitting something at 600 in a kill zone I would try beyound about 200 perhaps 250 yards with a 30/30.
Hitting a target isn;t the same as hitting and killing an animal. Or am I just the only one concerned about getting a clean kill?
30-30 At 800 Yards
With the Nosler 155grain J4 bullet in a 30-30 Singleshot, going a minimum of 2400 FPS, these shots are easy enough. BUT these same loads loaded one at a time in your typical Leveraction won't always group well beyond 200 yards. I normally won't shoot hardly anything beyond 350 yards, but sometimes I'll try my luck at much longer distances. Shooting metal 5 gallon buckets at 800 yards with these loads is possible with two of my guns. And it don't matter how much anybody says its unethical to try to shoot a small whitetail at that distance; it still needs to be tried sometimes. My 45/70 shoots into 11 inches at 1000 yards, so its plenty accurate for busting deer at that same distance. My BS meter runs amuck until someone PROVES what they can do
With the Nosler 155grain J4 bullet in a 30-30 Singleshot, going a minimum of 2400 FPS, these shots are easy enough. BUT these same loads loaded one at a time in your typical Leveraction won't always group well beyond 200 yards. I normally won't shoot hardly anything beyond 350 yards, but sometimes I'll try my luck at much longer distances. Shooting metal 5 gallon buckets at 800 yards with these loads is possible with two of my guns. And it don't matter how much anybody says its unethical to try to shoot a small whitetail at that distance; it still needs to be tried sometimes. My 45/70 shoots into 11 inches at 1000 yards, so its plenty accurate for busting deer at that same distance. My BS meter runs amuck until someone PROVES what they can do
Originally Posted by swampdoc 
The Dirty Thirty can easilly be counted on to harvest deer as far as 700 or 800 yards with the right bullet. Velocities below 2600 FPS aren't a handicap for myself, thats where my domain remains.
My B.S. meter just pegged.
Like what was said above the drop and muzzle drop would make an 800 yard shot unethical in even the best marksmans hands.
The Dirty Thirty can easilly be counted on to harvest deer as far as 700 or 800 yards with the right bullet. Velocities below 2600 FPS aren't a handicap for myself, thats where my domain remains.
My B.S. meter just pegged.
Like what was said above the drop and muzzle drop would make an 800 yard shot unethical in even the best marksmans hands.
If y'all aren't careful there's a certain member sure to be stickin in here shortly wavin the BS flag. Nothin like a little challenging long range shooting to shake things up and take the boredom out of 100 yard paper punching. My favorite was wackin a 15"x18" steel plate with mild 44 mag loads out of my 5.5" bbl Bisley Blackhawk. 5 out of 6 shots was my best at 110 yards.
Nothin like a little challenging long range shooting to shake things up and take the boredom out of 100 yard paper punching. My favorite was wackin a 15"x18" steel plate with mild 44 mag loads out of my 5.5" bbl Bisley Blackhawk. 5 out of 6 shots was my best at 110 yards.30-30 @ 500 yds
Its always irritated me how the Armchair gun experts in the gun magazines try to establish rediculas distance standards for older calibers. The Dirty Thirty can easilly be counted on to harvest deer as far as 700 or 800 yards with the right bullet. Velocities below 2600 FPS aren't a handicap for myself, thats where my domain remains.
Its always irritated me how the Armchair gun experts in the gun magazines try to establish rediculas distance standards for older calibers. The Dirty Thirty can easilly be counted on to harvest deer as far as 700 or 800 yards with the right bullet. Velocities below 2600 FPS aren't a handicap for myself, thats where my domain remains.
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Well good for you, Swampdoc. We have been shooting 38-55's @ 1350 fps at ranges up 800 yards (so far and planning to try 1000 yards). A friend in Washington state was shooting at a 16 inch square @ 400 yards last Saturday. He used a 38-55 CB Marlin with factory iron sights from a standing offhand position. Made a hit with about 40% of shots fired.
Well good for you, Swampdoc. We have been shooting 38-55's @ 1350 fps at ranges up 800 yards (so far and planning to try 1000 yards). A friend in Washington state was shooting at a 16 inch square @ 400 yards last Saturday. He used a 38-55 CB Marlin with factory iron sights from a standing offhand position. Made a hit with about 40% of shots fired.
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