I haven't shot bullet that heavy from my 7-30 Waters Contender barrel. I'm not sure the data would be much different for an encore, as the limitation is as much in the cartridge as the action.

It's a shame they force you to use heavier bullets, to meet a minimum ft/lb requirement; further proof that governments impose regulation with no real knowledge upon which to base their decisions. The key is matching the bullet to the velocity achieved and the game to be hunted. For deer, just about any 7mm bullet that will expand at the given impact velocity will do for a deer. It's not like they are anywhere near as hard to kill as a big hog.

 

Also only know of contender data that I use.

But I'm wondering??? How do they check the energy of reload ammo. I understand that factory loads have published energy. also how do they know the velocity or even the bullet weight? Do they disassemble your ammo? One could use heavy bullets because of personal preference, and just say they were using 139 grain bullets at the higher energy?


I think you could just go to a reloading data site, and get the load for the 7-waters from the rifle information, as the 7-water started life as a rifle round IIRC. Also the Encore action is a rifle action also.

Just my thoughts.

 

Hodgon list 5 loads up to 2300 fps, but that velocity is from a 22 inch rifle barrel.

 

Harry, you and me know how dumb governments and law makers are. There is little doubt when they came up with this it was to do away with the terrible situation back prior to about 1955 when you could shoot anything at a deer. So as we say, their heart was in the right place. Almost impossible to police, BUT I have always attempted to stay within the law ....... errr probably not on the freeway/motorway ... but believe that there are needs for making sure these beautiful animals are killed humanely. I have always found the 139s to do the job but one cannot look a gift horse in the mouth and the offer of a 100 162s awakened a need
I'll do a little research on loads I think , then run a series of loads to see where I begin to get a bit hot. The Encore action is well strong enough for common sense experimentation anyway. Broom, appreciate your input too. You guys shoot way more than we ever do and sitting here switched on to the forum is a serious learning curve at times. Cheers ........ out of the amber stuff, a nice little Riocha tonight with a neck of lamb goulash and all the trimmings.

 

Three thoughts.

1. Back in my metallic handgun silhouette days, I shot 168 gr cast bullets out of an RCBS mold in my 7mm TCU (a .223 necked put to 7mm, and blown out a bit). It was a bore riding design using 2 lube grooves and a gas check.

The 7x30 waters is large in comparison and a 162 gr bullet will be fine.

2. It's as conservative as it gets, and is at the conservative end of the scale in terms of even conservative Republican politics, but my home state of South Dakota has a 1000 ft pound minimum energy requirement for big game. They enforce it based on factory loaded ammunition data. That means that while I can take a hot loaded 110 or 115 gr bullet in a .30 Carbine and get enough velocity out of it to meet the 1000 ft pound minimum, it's still not legal as they will assume a standard load of 110 gr at 1,990 fps for about 967 ft pounds.

I'm not sure how it works in the UK, but if the 7-30 Waters is published as having 1000 ft pounds or more in a 139 gr load, you're probably good to go.

3. Load data is out there as the 162-168 gr weight was very popular for metallic handgun silhouette in the 7-30 Waters. You'll want to verify the data for your self, but this is an example of what you can find, either with a search or with a membership to hand loads.com or load data.com:

This data is from Handloaders Issue #131

162 Hornady Hollowpoint Boat-tail Hodgdon H-335 29.0 2,018
Remarks: primer: Fed 210M; case: FC; group (inches): 1.15; near maximum
162 Hornady Hollowpoint Boat-tail Hodgdon BL-C(2) 32.0 2,088
Remarks: primer: CCI 200; case: FCW; group (inches): .91; near maximum
162 Hornady Hollowpoint Boat-tail Hodgdon BL-C(2) 32.5 2,137
Remarks: primer: CCI 200; case: FCW; group (inches): .88; maximum
162 Hornady Hollowpoint Boat-tail Alliant RL-12 31.5 2,114
Remarks: primer: CCI 200; case: FCW; group (inches): .55; maximum
162 Hornady Hollowpoint Boat-tail Hodgdon H-380 34.5 2,049
Remarks: primer: CCI 200; case: FCW; group (inches): 1.56
162 Hornady Hollowpoint Boat-tail Hodgdon H-380 35.0 2,098

This is Hodgon data:

168 Sierra HPBT Hodgdon Varget 29.0 1912
Remarks: start load; COL: 2.780"; 33,000 cup
168 Sierra HPBT Hodgdon Varget 32.0 2062
Remarks: max load; compressed load; COL: 2.780"; 39,200 cup
168 Sierra HPBT Hodgdon BL-C(2) 31.0 1942
Remarks: start load; COL: 2.780"; 32,000 cup
168 Sierra HPBT Hodgdon BL-C(2) 33.6 2128
Remarks: max load; COL: 2.780"; 40,000 cup
168 Sierra HPBT Hodgdon H-335 28.5 1934
Remarks: start load; COL: 2.780"; 34,000 cup
168 Sierra HPBT Hodgdon H-335 30.2 2048
Remarks: max load; COL: 2.780"; 39,600 cup
168 Sierra HPBT Hodgdon H-4895 28.0 1977
Remarks: start load; COL: 2.780"; 34,400 cup
168 Sierra HPBT Hodgdon H-4895 30.2 2045
Remarks: max load; COL: 2.780"; 38,600 cup
168 Sierra HPBT Hodgdon Benchmark 23.0 1718
Remarks: start load; COL: 2.780"; 31,600 cup
168 Sierra HPBT Hodgdon Benchmark 25.5 1893
Remarks: max load; COL: 2.780"; 39,800 cup

 

Many thanks Mod 52, plenty to work on there. The 7-30 Waters is quite a rare little beast over here and my Firearms Licensing Dept refuse to give it its full designation, simply entering my license as 7mm, so it could be anything in that calibre. Another official raspberry if you understand the term. I have never known anyone questioned about the ft lb energy of their rifle cartridge, not ever. We don't have game wardens or such and our present police officers probably wouldn't know one end to the other. The fact that silouhette shooters are willing to throw 162s down range seems to suggest the bullet will work in a 7-30 waters. I will go ahead and run a few experiments. I have some Re 12 and 335 to start me off. Once I get a comfortable accurate load I am sure the bullet will do the rest. Many thanks.

 

I don't think that you are going to get a lot of expansion out of the 162gr. bullets in the 7-30 Waters. The velocities will be fairly low. Whether this is an advantage or not is up to you to decide. Might be ideal for pigs but on the light-bodied deer, don't know if you would get much expansion at all. Some of the deer you hunt are quite small.

My "Pet Loads" book by Ken Waters suggests the 120-139gr. range to be an ideal combination of velocity and bullet mass. Not to discourage experiments / innovation, but in this instance I think the suggestion is wise, at least for the smaller deer species. On pigs, I'll try anything, but it isn't much of a risk since we are overrun with them in Texas.

Theoretical speculation on my part regarding bullet performance.

 

Thanks Mike, appreciate your input. I have to see what make etc these 160s are. A friend has been cleaning out his reloading room and found a bunch of 7mm stuff he had back when he shot a 7mm Rem Mag. They will be free so no cash outlay. I am in the planning stage of a trip to Slovenia in September for some piggy shooting, so thought they might just do the job and I can take some 139s for the roe deer. Means I only have one rifle and need just one adjustment between locations for zero. I might just pop one through a fallow in August to test expansion. Put it through the ribs it will do enough damage to the lungs to kill the animal and give me some idea of performance.
I am planning to improve a bit on the Hornady Manual ratings for the 162 grain from a 14 inch Contender barrel which is 2200fps. with 34.6g Win748. Should be able to carefully improve on that a bit in the Encore. Shame to waste them

 

I don't know if this will help you, but it has some pretty good info on the 7-30.


7-30 Waters Reloading - Tcbunch

 

Back when I was shooting silhouette I shot the 7-TCU quite a bit. I tried hunting with it and shot three or four whitetail (I don't remember the exact number) with it using 139g jacketed bullets loaded to around 2000 fps. None of the bullets used expanded at all. I recovered the deer but it was a clean small round hole going in and the same coming out. I suspect that you'll find the same with the 7Waters. It can push the same bullets a bit over 100fps faster than the 7TCU, but I don't think that's enough to get the bullet to expand. Pushing a bullet as heavy as you're going to use will make it all the more challenging. I'm curious to hear the results though. I have to agree, the government deciding the criteria for bullet selection leaves a lot to be desired. For deer size game you'd be a lot better off with a lighter bullet pushed a lot faster. You'd get some expansion if allowed to use your own selected components and a little common sense and experience. On the up side, deer just aren't that hard to kill with a well placed shot.

 

With the price you are paying for the bullets, I think it is a great idea. good luck and let us know how they perform.

 

nsb I have been using mostly 139/140 grain hunting bullets of one make and another in the 7-30 for some time now and have had no problem with expansion or penetration, particularly from the 139 SST Interlock which even on a 50lb roe buck leaves a two inch hole on exit and mushes the lungs and arteries beyond recognition. I suppose I am going against all that I have preached over the years .. if it works, don't meddle .. or words to that effect.
It will be interesting to see how these bullets perform and particularly on pigs. You will all have to wait a while for that result because I don't plan being in Slovenia before October, but given the chance I'll pop one through a fallow and see the result.
Should have them this weekend so will get some made up.

 

Sus, I'll defer to your experience in this caliber. My own experience wasn't too good the few times I used the 7tcu on deer, but I'm sure you've got a lot more experience than I do with 7mm's. I remember shooting one small (spike) buck with the 7tcu and it ran a total of about 250 yards and died in the middle of a medium size stream. I ended up having to wade into waste deep water and get the buck freed from some tree root branches and then haul him up a very steep embankbment to get him to where I could drag him back to camp. This was in late November and it was freezing. No snow on the ground but it was COLD! He was shot through both lungs but there was no evidence of expansion in or out. As I recall, the other couple weren't much better. Could have been the bullet I was using. It was a Hornady 139 grain Spire Point according to my old log book (for years I kept a log on what I shot, the date, time, where, etc....I finally quit several years back). Anyway, I'm curious and want to know how this works out for you. Let us all know how it goes.

 

7-30 waters

I found one for a friend/newbie to shooting app 1986, a Winchester 94 XTR, & loaded nosler 120 gr solid base flat points in it for him, they shot great. He ended up moving & wanted to GIVE it to me, I said no thanks, just hold onto it for a while, it might be worth something someday. I've been kicking myself ever since & have yet to come across another. GREAT caliber imo. Ken Waters knew his stuff.

 

nsb With all due respect the 7tcu is a totally different beast to the 7-30 Waters. The TCU struggles to get near 2000fps and the mean fps I have in my loading manual is 1900. The 7-30 Waters pushes 2350 and easing up the load a bit I get 2387fps on average with a 139gr bullet. I have had no problems with the 139/140gr and they have consistently dropped animals as big as a large fallow buck within a few strides as it ran out of go juice. The bullets I have just been given are Speer 160grn boat tails which I am confident I can drive to a touch over 2200fps. If they fly true I am pretty certain I will get expansion at my normal hunting ranges from petting to 150yrds.

 

Sus, I never owned a 7-30 Waters so I was simply making an "educated guess" on using the cartridge on deer. I consulted my loading manuals and old data and I show I was getting just a tad over 2,000fps with the 139g bullet using IMR3031 powder. Just looking at the 7-30 Waters in the same manual shows a 140g bullet at 2192fps. Now both of those velocities are out of a handgun, a TC 14"bbl. I guess I wasn't figuring the added velocity of the rifle length barrel in my calculations. Again, I defer to your experience in this matter. I'm just surprised that the couple of hundred feet a second increase makes such a difference. However, I guess it has to start somewhere. Thinking ahead to using an even heavier bullet seems like it might be to the point where the velocity may not be sufficient to expand the bullet. I am curious as to how it turns out and I do wish you the best in using it.

 

This will give you an idea of the right bullet, cartridge, rifle, scope, and range time all coupled together will do. The Sierra Gameking in any caliber is a great hunting bullet and target bullet. Shot placement, staying within the guns effective range, right bullet for task at hand. This is a 7mm TCU Carbine rifle using the 160gr Sierra Gameking IIRC.



http://www.shootersforum.com/game-pole/87290-wife-baby-rifle-=-big-pig.html

 

It was good to see that big pig again fred. Put that 160grainer in the right place and I am sure it will do the job. I have now shot so many animals and some drop stone dead(hate those because occasionally they jump up and run away) Others will astound you as to their will to live. Had a big fallow buck one morning which stood 40yrds away looking straight at me. I had my 30-06 at the time and it was loaded with 150grain bullet. I popped it right through that little hollow we all have just below our chin and the animal wheeled round and bounded off as if not hit. I waited just a few minutes and took a look. At the point it hit the ground first time there was a big splash of bright red blood. the next time it hit the ground ten paces on was another and I followed this for about fifty yards when I heard a grunt in the trees to my left and made my way across to find the buck stone dead. I walked the route and it was 160 of my paces(I'm 6ft plus). The bullet had taken out the top of the heart both lungs and the liver and was tucked against the diaphragm nicely mushroomed. Because that animal had seen me its adrenalin was fully flowing and no doubt that is what kept it going. The meat was just about good enough for shoe leather as a result. Made good sausage though The donator of the 160s also gave me a brand new unopened box of Game Kings in 140, all I had to do in exchange was take him out to shoot a fox ...... then he missed !!

 

I've always stuck with light-for-caliber bullets in my various Contender barrels (except the 44RM) on the principle that they will fly faster and open up more reliably. I shoot 100gr BT's from the 6.5JDJD and 120gr BT's from the 7-30 Waters. Favorite for the 30 Herrett was the old Sierra 135gr pistol bullet they made, but that's discontinued now. The 125gr BT has taken it's place and does very well in this velocity range.

If I were hunting a larger critter, like a hog, heavier bullets would make sense. I wouldn't expect to see actual bullet expansion at such low velocity, but that really depends a lot on the bullet design.

 

Cannot agree with you more jm BUT a nice gentleman presented me with an unopened box of 160s and an unopened box of 140s and we have a saying, perhaps also known in the US. "Never look a gift horse in the mouth" So I am going to load up some of these 160s and see what happens. First of, of course, is seeing if they will group moa or less, then put them through a big fallow and see what happens. Certainly the 140 Sierras are more my kettle of fish for the 7-30 Waters, so will have to try them as well If the 160s appear to work adequately then I will be taking some to Slovenia in October to see how the red stags and piggies like them

 

Winchester mdl 94 7-30 waters

came with a 24" bbl and a twist rate of 9 1/2". Federal factory ammo (back in 1984?) 120gr bullets averaged 2747 fps, while keeping pressures under 37000- 38000 CUP. I loaded 29 gr's of rl-7 with the 120 gr nosler solid base flat point for a listed 2454 fps reduced velocity but accurate load. The flat point 120 gr nosler is no longer made unfortunately. I would venture to guess if you dropped the bullet wt to 120-130 gr's, found a well constructed bullet, you would be able to get much higher velocities than 2,000 fps, even in shorter bbl.'s. This is just guestimation on my part as I no longer have a 7-30 to test, and YES the data is 30 years old, but was written by the man who litteraly wrote the book & invented the caliber, Ken Waters pet loads vol 1, so don't shoot the messenger. With todays powders, who knows.

 

Test

Sus,
Just a thought, do you have a way to shoot these into some jugs of water or a stack of new paper? I've shot the 160 Speer in the past from my 7 mag and of course that's a horse of a different color, and seemed to be a thinner jacket or expanded more rapidly than my 162gr Hornaday. Just a way you might be able to check for expansion if you could recover one. One of my two brain cells came up with that thought this morning.
Any way I'll be watching to see your report.

 

I personally do not own a 7x30 but been around them in the pistol version for many years, my brother bought a rifle in the caliber about 10 years ago and I've helped him find appropriate loads for his medium game hunting as well. My opinion based on what he has done with his encore suggests that 120-140 grain bullets are best for this cartridge and it's moderate velocities.
The price of a couple of boxes of bullets is miniscule as compared to the trip itself, I'd buy a couple of boxes of bullets and pick moderate accuracy loads out of the book and sight the gun in for the hunt. You don't need tuned loads to kill pigs or deer, you do need bullets that perform well on the intended game.

 

Kevin, I have maybe eight or ten different boxes of 7mm bullets in the 120 to 145 range. Really the last thing I needed was a couple of hundred free bullets, but these were a gift for services rendered which would have been rude not to accept, so I have them and now need to find a use for them even if that is just blowing out the 30-30 cases I use, but much more satisfying to use them for what they were intended.
I have not shot anything larger than 139/145 in the 7-30 and EVERYTHING I have shot with it has died very quickly. The 139/145 category do the job without a doubt..
I am sorry but don't quite understand what a 'tuned' load is. I normally choose a load which groups moa or smaller at 100 and sometimes on a totally new bullet will run a series of 5 loads a grain or two apart and pick the one that does best. Is that 'tuning' ?
The only way to find out if the 160s will perform well on the intended game and it appears that they will, looking at the big old boar freds wife shot with a cartridge of slightly less capability fps wise than the 7-30 Waters.
I will report back and the suggestion to shoot a few water filled plastic jugs and recovered the bullets is sound. Thanks.

 

In that class of rifle I have a 7br XP-100, best performing bullets are 110-120 grain on live animals, also have several 7-08's, 140-150 grain bullets work well on live game in this cartridge. 7-30 is in between these two in performance so you could hypothesize that 120-140 would perform well in it, I have had very poor bullet expansion on game with 160 grain bullets from the 7-08, these were designed for 7mm magnums.
If you will be hunting with the aid of dogs it won't matter much because wounded game will still be able to be recovered, otherwise you might want to take only front shoulder or head shots with inappropriate bullets.

 

If I cannot guarantee a shot through both lungs and part of the heart. I don't squeeze the trigger. Texas heart shot a fox recently with 117gr 257 at 60 yrds but that was a bit different. Unzipped it end to end. I have a suitable dog, but in the past 40yrs remember only having to use him or his predecessor four times and two of those were for clients animals hit in slightly the wrong place, both liver shots where a beast will run a long way before dying and strangely leave very little blood trail and one where a friend shot a buck which dropped stone dead and the drunken guide declared he had missed. The roe buck had dropped into a drainage channel where the grass then closed over. Took my big old Labrador about 60 seconds to find it and drag it out and that was 12hrs later after it lying overnight. Suffice to say the so called Forestry Guide was somewhat embarrassed when I dropped it by the front door of his cottage.
I'll certainly report the results, good or bad.
Apologies for the poor quality picture but it was sometime ago. The big lab is probably the best dog I will ever own. Totally devoted and totally fearless.

 

A further comment -

The Speer bullets that I have used seem to be a little on the soft side. Not unsuitable for hunting, but not a bullet you want to run at max speeds. This comments excludes the Grand Slams, etc., as those I have not yet used on game except for a turkey out the window of the truck from a .270 which is hardly a rigorous test of bullet integrity.

Anyway - the good news about that conclusion (if it is correct and I have shot a few animals with different weight / diameter Speer bullets) is that the 160s should be more prone to expansion at lower velocities. If you can get them to 2,200 - 2,300fps and the shot is inside 100 yards, it should work well I would suspect.

I always figure a pig is as good of a test as anything....

 

I entirely agree Mike. I prefer using a hog, particularly a Texan hog, than a bottle of water

 

Does the government require the deer to remain within a specified distance from your muzzle while you shoot them? Does it mean you will not be permitted to shoot at a deer at any range where KE has dropped below 1700 ft lbs regardless of how it started?

Politics are the same the world over. Our legislatures should be converted into asylums for the mentally defective.

 

Don't give them any ideas, logic is not in the works with Gov clowns.