[Elkhamr]

MusgraveMan thank you for the reply, and thank you for offering to try locating a piece of brass. I've always thought the cartridge was a gem, and has alot of potential in modern rifles. If you were to build a 7.5x55 for open country deer hunting, as well as mountainous terrain for elk, what do you feel would be an appropriate barrel length to wring the most out of this cartridge? What I like about the case in the virgin state is, it's length would allow for very versatile seating depth for all .308 hunting bullets, and possibly even the real high BC bullets. If we look at the case volume of the 30 TC, which is a real performer for it's capacity, and compare it to the Swiss, the potential with modern powders and higher BC bullets in the Swiss with appropriate barrel length could really make it shine. I keep my eye out at gun shows for 7.5x55 Swiss and 376 Steyr brass to work with, but where I live these rounds are unheard of. Another idea I had was to build it on a single shot platform. There would be no magazine length constraints, and the action being so short would allow for a longer barrel, and still keep the weight down fairly low. Anyway just a thought, and thanks again for your reply and Ideas. Glad someone with field experience was able to shed some light on this gem.

 

[Elkhamr]

After a few searches that turned up very vague information about any 7.5x55 based wildcats, I came across some more vague info, about some guys developing Swiss based wildcats on the Firing Line Forum. I tried registering to the forum to access the info, but was unsuccessful, I kept getting bounced around from page to page, and never did get registered. I'll keep at it, and maybe someone else will churn up some good solid info.

 

[Elkhamr]

Nv shooter that's one thing that has kept me from buying any brass. I see brass listed in midways catalogue, but I don't know if at point someone made brass so handloaders could use boxer primers or not, and it doesn't specify in the catalogue ?

 

[Elkhamr]

DUH ! I need to redeem myself here. The info in Hornady's manual lists Norma cases and Federal 210 primers. Guess I looked at to many numbers and cases today, and had a brain fart or something similar !

 

[Elkhamr]

MM you are a lucky man, having access to the firearm and cartridges, and all the sources you have to collect information makes it all the more rich of an experience for you. "We have what we have" here in the U.S. and if we want something different to what our manufacturers provide, we have to think outside the box and build it ourselves. I don't mind doing that though, because in the end the learning and knowledge gained throughout the proccess, is a "forever" type of experience. Once that knowledge is gained, it makes talking with experts like yourself and other forum members that much more of a rich experience. Arguments could be made either way whether that this is a worthless endeavor and that there is already enough cartridges out there to fill any niche. I believe that's true BUT, if we ever stop thinking of ways to improve something, then this gets to be a boring stagnant sport for the average shooter/handloader. It's pretty hard for me to get all revved up about going down, and loading a bunch of 30-06 rounds. I like sticking cases in different dies and seeing what I can make, it's fun and it inspires a person to imagine how it will perform as we thumb through reloading manuals comparing it to other cases. My thinking with the Swiss, is that it is a case that could make an entire line of efficient, light recoiling cartridges from 257-9.3cal. The performance is already built into that case, it already runs at 60,000plus, changing the bullet diameter only unlocks "more of a good thing" in my mind, and opens up a whole new to "us" platform. RWS is another manufacturer I've posted on looking for info and drawings to work from. The Euro cases are just better, there's a reason they can safely load them to the kinds of pressures they do, the works been done already, it just takes open minds to go get those cases and work with them. About you Bushbuck rifle, I followed that entire post and learned alot, it's all technical scientific data that is tried and true, the reson it was so interesting to me is because I have a unique situation coming up this next hunting season where I need a cartridge with low muzzle blast, low velocity, but still capable of anchoring Whitetails with shoulder shots BUT not ruining a bunch of meat. The animals HAVE to drop on the spot or within 20yds because of surrounding houses and properties. I can't shoot some firebreathing magnum for this, it has to be a low key operation, or it's off the table. That's for another post but wanted you to see why your bushbuck rifle post really appealed to me and fit my situation. I thought of naming mine "Urban Deerslayer"....pretty fitting name.

 

[Elkhamr]

MM, I HOPE I didn't sound as if I don't give credit/respect or pay homage to the 30-06 or 308 and varient or offspring of those 2 fine cartridges, honestly nothing can be further from the truth. Without them we would never be where we are today, and those 2 cartridges are the backbone, and workhorses of the American hunter and hunters/riflemen abroad depending on game being hunted. I also am a big fan of the 8mm. When building my 8mm wildcat, I didn't care so much about there not being a wide selection of bullet weights available. I wanted a single purpose built rifle for elk, and wanted it to deliver a 200gr bullet with substantial authority at ranges to 300yds.. I chose the 200gr Accubond, and the 7mm Dakots case, Rem 721 action. So far it has met my expectations and then some. I really need to get it hooked up to some pressure trace equipment, to see where I'm at as far as pressures. I don't know if I'm anywhere close to the designed pressures of the 7mmDakota case. There may be more potential or I may be at a safe max...don't know at this time. I thought about paying someone from the forum, to run some pressure tests on the rifle, and give me their opinions, thoughts, ideas. or changes needed if any. Anyway, that's another deal all together. So back to your bushbuck thread, I wanted to ask some questions as people were adding valuable experience and info, but didn't want to disrupt the evolution of the thread. I'm hoping the same folks will give their opinions/field experience, when it comes time to get my project up and running. The 2 situations as you say are eerily similar, except I don't have dangerous life threatening situations around every blade of grass like you encounter daily. I will just have a bunch of nonhunters/anti anything outdoors, scoffing at me across the fences. I'm thinking my 338 Marlin Exp. slowed way down, with a bullet yet to be determined from members input here, should work really well. It needs to be extremely consistant accuracy wise, since I'm not the only one who will be using it to harvest deer with 1 shot kills. That's just one idea since I have the rifle on hand, and would lend itself to being loaded down.

 

[Elkhamr]

MM thank you very much for the invitation to bring my questions to the Bushbuck rifle post. Thank you also for recognizing my ethics, even though our situations are very similar, one question from me, could have pointed the flow of info in a completely different direction and disrupted peoples train of thought. I saw it as a time to learn and not talk I guess you could say. I want to read everything again without distractions, and look at all the links to info referenced again. I'm sure some of my questions can be answered, therefore not rehashing any info or wasting peoples time. I'll write my questions down so it will help keep my train of thought, so info will flow smoothly as in your post. I'm really looking forward to others suggestions for bullets in the 338 Marlin Exp. at lower than normal start velocities. So I'm hoping to get some time thursday to sit down and compile some thoughts, ideas , questions, then possibly by weeks end I can put up a new thread. If enough of my questions are answered through reading then I'll hold off on a new thread and do some testing before I start asking questions and again wasting time rehashing info. Thanks again MM, take good care out there !

 

[Elkhamr]

Hello fellas, after much thought, and without hijacking MMs & CCs Bushbuck Rifle post, Maybe the best approach would be to just present the hunting scenario here, and let everybody including the Moderators decide if a new thread is warrented. I'll wait to hear back from a few of you before going any further...thanks.

 

[Elkhamr]

Broom, ICL &MM you all make very good points of this being a somewhat redundant project. The head diameter being what it is, and not fitting any current U.S. bolt face diameter, will forever limit all the good Euro cases from ever being chambered in the U.S.. The reason the case appeals so much to me is that: you could move the shoulder to any position on the body, so theres no more than one bullet diameter neck length, which would add some capacity depending on bullet diameter. If the neck length was left as is, it would be perfect for 9.3 caliber and no case capacity would be lost. if you pushed the shoulder forward until you had a neck length of 257" then capacity would surely be added to the case, which would likely rival the 25-06 but in a much more substabtial case. Any caliber in between .284 and .323, you would also see slight added capacity by pushing the shoulder forward to make the neck length match the bullet diameter. Yes the 6.5-284 is a phenominal round, I had one . The SR case with the shoulder moved forward to give you a neck length of .264" would give you enough added capacity to probably outperform the 6.5-284. Plus depending on desired neck length it could give you a longer neck allowing for seating depth versatility and MIGHT be easier on throats(?). One has to wonder why the Euro engineers make their cases with the larger head diameters across the board. Does the larger diameter spread pressure over a larger bolt face surface area, reducing pressure on the total designed lock up system of the action ? Does a larger head diameter give better bullet to bore alignment enhancing accuracy? I personally don't like the 284 case, I've had 25-284, 6.5-284, 284win, and had problems with them all feeding. Most of the trouble was the rebated rim ducking under the bolt head and tipping the back of the cartridge down into the mag well. Another problem is seating bullets, the short neck doesn't give you much to work with without impinging on powder space and is hard on throats. I'm thinking if you were to use say a standard length Rem. action, and use a window box magazine or single stack mag, that any problems with the fatter SR case could be negated without having to work on the feed rails, therefore ruining the action for any other cartridge. Other than opening the bolt face to a other than U.S. diameter, (which could be reversed with a shim in some actions) I don't see alot of other alterations needed. I'm aware of the downfall of the Dakota line being caused mainly by the odd size bolt face, many refuse to look at anything out of the "norm". It's this closed mindedness that keeps alot of really good Euro cartridge platforms out of the U.S. market. I didn't care about the Dakota size case head when I designed my 8mm wildcat, it performs flawlessly. If you're going to go through the trouble of building a "one off" wildcat then prepping the action and bolt are just part of it, it's an expected step and expendature. Now, I'm not trying to change the U.S. market, and I'm not saying we should throw out all the great U.S. cartridges because they're junk, I'm just thinking of all the great Euro cartridges that MM references all the time, that will never be seen here in the U.S.. My son will never even know they're available if I don't show him, all he'll know is the 223, 308, 270, 30-06 because that's all that will ever be on our U.S. gunracks.

 

[Elkhamr]

Hello guys, I wanted to put this in my above post because it's relative to my ideas, of making the SR case a versatile multi-caliber platform, but time didn't allow right then. Ok so I need some help here from someone that's really knowledgable about P.O. Ackleys works. Theres something that has always stuck in my mind about something I read, in either Handloader or Rifle Shooter magazine. They were working with a 280 AI. and in the write up it said. that Ackley found by changing the angle of the shoulder to 40 degrees, it actually lessens the amount of bolt thrust upon firing. Has anyone else read that in any of Ackleys writings ? I've always thought that impossible or they possibly misquoted Ackley. If you're adding combustion space and filling it with powder, then wouldn't the result be increased thrust pressure on the bolt ? I do understand how the powder burns in a case, and that it's actually lofted forward by the primer blast first thus hitting the shoulder. It's this lofting of pwoder against a nearly flat surface they said contributes to the lower bolt thrust (again according to Ackley's writings). i referenced making the SR case into an Ackley platform just to show there could be a useful gain in capacity, if one were to give it the full on Ackley facelift. I only like to improve a case if it's notorious for stretching excessively. I hate uniforming 100brass only to get 3-4 shots out of them so improving makes sense at that point. I don't think the SR case needs any shoulder angle change, being a somewhat fatter case the 30 degree angle probably allows it to feed fairly smoothly. Changing the location of the shoulder is what I'm interested in DEPENDING on caliber. Hopefully when MM gets to Colorado that he will find a piece of SR brass so I can look at it and do some capacity measurements. Knowing capacity would allow me to compare it to other pieces of brass I have on hand, in the 30-06 and 308win families. If I can do that, then I'll post what I find, and WE as a group can decide if it's worth pursueing, and decide what caliber would see the most benefit. I want all sorts of input, optimal barrel length, action type, bullet type & design, optimal powder selection for capacity and bore size etc. The more input I have could limit cost and time if it turns out to be a viable project. Thanks to all who have already gave good solid technical facts, this is what I'm looking for, and it's all knowledge gained on my part, and possibly a benefit to others thinking about wildcatting a cartridge in the future.

 

[Elkhamr]

MM that's the question I've been pondering since I read it in a magazine. I just wanted someone who is well read on Ackleys writings to verify if that was indeed in his writings or not. Just like the internet, I don't believe everything I read in the gun rags. Now had it shown an actual quote from Ackley's books then I may think differently. I guess I don't see how adding more powder therefore more pressure, can result in less backthrust, unless the more square case grabs the chamber walls better and decreases backthrust. Is that what you are saying MM ? I can see that, and understand why it would work that way. More surface area and less case taper being able to grab the chamber walls.

 

[Elkhamr]

MM sorry for sending you on a hunt for stray brass on such short notice, I didn't think I would find anyone with some SR brass. When I was deciding to make a post about the SR, I did figure you would be the one to have experience with the cartridge and would likely be the first to answer my post. Maybe a dumb question but do you also have a piece of 7.5x54mm French MAS ? That would be a bonus if you did...hahaha !

 

[Elkhamr]

MM this is all too uncanny, I too am French, my last name is Puyear pronounced Pu-yare'. No wonder we love the Euro cartridges and think somewhat along the same lines. I also would consider myself a free thinker, and hate my mind being constrained by what I'm forced to use, when I believe theres better out there. Not just talking rifles here either ! When I was presented with the situation to hunt deer, within and around the housing developement, I kinda had to think in reverse too. I can't have bullets blowing through the deer and off into God knows where, and that was my first vision, I knew it was going to have to break the deer down right on the spot, so it wouldn't be jumping fences any dying in someones front yard that hates hunting. I shot a deer there about 8yrs ago with 270WSM when there weren't as many houses, and every darn light in the little drainage came on, and I had to skin out of there and come back when everyone went to work. That's why the guy wants this to be as low key as pissible. So low and slow will be my approach this year...lol. I've never tried underloading a cartridge to see how slow I can get it, and still have safe combustion without detonation, the forum members will likely have the answer as to which powder/primer combination to use in whichever cartridge will get the job done. My shots will have to be 40yds or less, so that all the dirty work is hidden by the large thick willow bank bordering his property. I'm hoping it will absorb some of the sound too. If the neighbors weren't a problem, I would just use my bow, but then I would surely have critters dying right next to houses and in the roads...lol.

 

[Elkhamr]

Broom it's funny you mention Assassin, I'm currently working on something with him. I haven't picked his brain on the Ackley avenue as far as pressure and bolt thrust. The cartridge him and I are working with is the 250Sav. AI.. I totally agree with everyone that has said it doesn't matter how that bullet gets out of the barrel, and what case was used. I'm more into the learning part of the whole experience. I've already done 2 successful wildcats, and thoroughly enjoyed the work put into it, and now have the knowledge about how brass works. Watching my son and I shoot elk and deer with something that came from my mind and hands is all the satisfaction or validation I need. I could spend my money on a whole lot more worthless endeavors, but I got bit by the wildcat bug years ago, and enjoy it to this day.

 

[Elkhamr]

MM thanks for checking into it , I appreciate the offer and the effort. I'll probably end up buying some from midway.