[Trent12]

Yeah, it doesn't always have to do with energy. A large caliber bullet moving slower with a little less energy can do more damage than a fast moving smaller bullet. There are more factors at play then just kinetic energy. If the bullet is moving too fast it can be bad too. Like a .22-250 on a whitetail sometimes demonstrates. I think a .45 auto or .40 S&W, even a 9mm Luger could drop a deer in a single shot if made at a reasonable range and if shot placement is good. I would trust a carbine in any of those 3 at a range of about ~40 yards to do the job if I really really needed it too. What's the average penetration of those 3 loaded with hollow points? Like 12-16" isn't it in ballistic gel? I think that's deep enough to reach vitals in a medium sized animal.

 

[preventec47]

Although there have been dozens and dozens of perspectives discussed in this thread, I dont believe
anyone has mentioned the aspect of volume and "Shape" of the permanent wound cavity resulting
from the shock wave when the bullet hits. Permanent wound damage occurs when the shock forces
tissue past the elastic limit and the tissue cohesion is destroyed. This applies to bone as well.

There are two extremes of projectile choices and everything in between
A. Big slow bullets with flat meplat or hollow point or round nose hard and soft

B. Small(er) fast moving with pointed tips that are very soft and explode upon contact
or are tougher enough to result in greater degrees of penetration depending on whether
the noses deform or stay more or less solid and pointed.

The whole evlolution of firearms has had to deal with reaching out to longer and longer ranges.
Since this requires smaller faster and more pointed bullets we have had to devise different means
of bullet construction that will attempt to make bigger holes at long range and at the same time
not explode at very close ranges. This requires great compromise in the bullet design.

Short range shooters know well that the original large slow bullets muzzle loader like minnie
balls or shotgun slugs drill deep constant diameter permanent wound channels. This is because
the momentum of the heavy bullet dissipates slowly after contact and being a larger projectile
much of the permanent damage resulting from pure crush rather than hydraulic shock.

Hi velocity bullet imparts the greatest shock at the highest velocities upon impact and creates
the greatest shock and expansion within 2 or 3 inches of impact and the bullet slows
very rapidly with the amount of shock decreasing just as rapidly. The shape of this
permanent wound cavity is like a funnel that can be long or shallow depending on how
tough the bullet is. A varmint type bullet may only penetrate a total of 5 or 6 inches
yet have a very large diameter permanent wound cavity funnel shape. A very tough
super fast small bullet will still create the funnel shape cavity but it will be long and tapered
resulting in a deeper permanent cavity with the greatest diameter also being deeper
depending on how deep the bullet penetrated before mushrooming which increases
the shock to surrounding tissues.

The point to my mention of the permanent wound shape is that the cavity must
superimpose on vital organ or central nervous system areas.

Another benefit of firearms evolution is that the modern lighter faster bullets typically
kick less than the old fashioned heavy bullet shooters. So firearms evolution mainly gave us
longer range shooting with less discomfort.

There are hundreds of calibers but all are either at the extremes or are at various midpoint
compromise positions between the 700 grain miniballs of .69 caliber or the .22 cal superfast
40gr pills.

Aside from distance you want to hunt at and recoil considerations, think also about the
shape of the permanent wound cavity you want to create. Choose anywhere between large diameter
but shallow funnel shape to constant diameter deep hole.

When selecting the cartridge you choose to hunt with, remember that for any given weight-shape
bullet more powder is going to create a larger permanent wound cavity and more recoil.
The construction of the bullet will influence the shape of the wound cavity.

When thinking about adequate killing power for certain game, I've been toying with the idea
of a chart denoting minimum amounts of gunpowder required for different weight bullets instead
of the ft/lbs energy .... maybe this chart would have different columns for different desired ranges.

Lastly, one reason I think the 30-06 is the most popular hunting round is because it is close to
the midpoint compromise position between say big and slow 45-70 and .243 or 22-250 laser
shooters.

My personal choice for firearms selection in the modern era is a 7 magnum shooting 110gr varmint
bullets at the lungs of deer. I decided I wanted to stop destroying meat and I avoid shoulders
totally. Whereas bullets designed to bust through shoulders blow through the foam tissue lungs
with minimal damage I selected the varmint bullets to be as destructive as possible but only
in the lung area. I have had many deer run for quite a ways when shot through the lungs
but none since I have switched to varmint bullets. Also the 110gr bullet does well to protect
my fragile shoulder as the recoil is considerably less than popular 140 and 150gr 7mm bullets.

 

[264WM]

You know what they say about ex sperts ex is a has been and a spert is a drip under pressure. If they only knew how many deer have been killed with a 22 long rifle or 22 mag. they would be shocked.

 

[Pete D.]

Yeah. Half the story

If they only knew how many deer have been killed with a 22 long rifle or 22 mag. they would be shocked.

Maybe so. There is also the "how many deer were only wounded and ran off to die a slow death?" part of the idea to consider.

P

 

[T.Jeff Poole]

Been around some brangus (angus/brahma cross) cattle and they were mean enough. I can't imagine what a buffalo/brahma cross might be like. Let alone one with a bullet in him to spice things up a bit.

Whats the caliber of that 440 grain slug, mike??

As we learned in physics---Mass in motion tends to stay in motion.

From my youthful raising on West Texas ranches, and from experience since, I've decided that there are two variations of the venerable Brahma breed. One a whitish/gray to blackish brown color, the other more red. With quite a few variations in the gray ones. For the most part, if handled properly, they can be the most docile of cattle. In their native land of India, small children lead huge animals through bustling crowds with no problem, holding them with nothing more than what appears to be bailer twine. However, that "handled properly" is a loaded qualification. It means be as gentle and quiet as possible around them. Chouse them, get them stirred up, think you're going to "force" them into something, then you get a problem.And their size can make that a serious problem. Ask a rodeo clown.
Two very different bloodlines.
The reds are crazy. Every one I've ever encountered was an idiot(as if a bovine ever has much sense).
Most of the Brahmas in the States are of the gray bloodline, so most of the cross breeds we see are of the gray line. And most(MOST) are fairly manageable cattle. There are always exceptions with livestock, just like people. MOST Brangus, which is a cross between Brahma and Angus, are fairly good dispositioned cattle. Again, best to handle them kinda easy till they get used to you and you to them.
Crossing with a buffalo throws in a wild card(no pun intended). Buffalo are notoriously independent, and even more aggresive than domestic cattle. I would suppose because of their recent history as totally wild animals. They can be domesticated quite well, but still retain that independence in a lot of ways.
As for how much energy it takes to cleanly kill something that big, a lot of that depends on the mental state of the animal immediately before delivering the fatal shot, as well as placement. Capstick and I'm sure a lot of other WHs used to cull African elephants with a .308. Not something I would suggest, but it has been done, routinely, in the right setting.
There is an old story about an Indian guide in Alaska that had several B&C moose to his credit. When asked by his clients as to what caliber he used, he calmly claimed "it was a .22 long rifle." Seems he would get on a lake in his canoe, find his bull near the shore, point his canoe straight at the moose, then take one stroke of the paddle while the moose had his head underwater, grazing. The paddle stroke would cause the moose to raise his head, but by then, the hunter was sitting stone still in his canoe, drifting straight toward the moose. Moose thinks it's a log. Repeat the process until in range, shoot the moose, in the ear, with the .22.
And DO NOT MISS! Unless you want to give an angry 1500 lb moose a canoe ride. Cause he might get in. Likely on your end.

 

[nachogrande]

Foot/lbs & fps

ARE JUST #'s. As stated innumerable times, arrows & 22 lr's killed many animals as do the air compressor bolts in slaughterhouses that humanely kill millions. The electrocution method used on furbearing animals has no fps or ft/lbs, but I wouldn't try it on a cape buffalo.

 

[unclenick]

Actually, just to be strictly correct, the electricity delivered can be measured in ft-lbs. Those are units of energy, same as joules and kilowatt-hours. All you need is the correct conversion factor.

One kW-hr = 2.665 million ft-lbs.

 

[nachogrande]

Thank you mr science

J.K. I'll take a longer bbl to use one of those, if you please. Learn something new everyday, hopefully. I'll take your word on it, NO PROOF REQ'D. If it comes in handy or can make me some $ is another ?

 

[preventec47]

Killed by .177 pellet gun.
Unbelievably I had a friend accidentally kill a 180 pound buck with a 177 cal magnum
pellet gun. He has for years gone out on his front porch in a suburban environment
and shot at deer eating his flowers and bushes to run them off.

On this occasion the deer ran
as usual across several front yards then across the street and down another
lot or two and collapsed in the front yard of the neighbor. Turns out the
pellet had penetrated about two inches in the neck region and severed
one of the jugular arteries in the neck.

 

[T.R.]

I've only taken one bison so I'm no expert. I crawled across the South Dakota prairie to close the distance to approx. 125 yards. When the crosshairs lined up with the butt of the ear I pressed the trigger. The animals folded up right there and never even kicked. Rifle: Remington .308 carbine shooting 180 grain FEDERAL Fusion ammo.

TR