You forgot Lieutenant Colonel Arthur B. Alphin started A-Square in 1979.
A-Square held monolithic bullet patents, for what that's worth.

 

Darkker, A-Square was not included because their cup and core bullets were a soft-nose lead in a thick jacket of a brass based two-metal mix. They and the SA manufacturer PMP at the same time had round nose brass monolithic bullets but both were failures on elephant and Cape buffulo due to being too brittle and fracturing when hitting heavy bone, They both were a quick come and go in Africa and not at all considered to be of premium quality.

 

I am pretty sure Barnes made a solid turned bullet in the early to mid 80's. I have a friend who is a long time African hunter (with the late Bill Carter), who I remember loading them in that time frame. The cost was astronomical and my younger version had a hard time wrapping my head around the expense...but now can appreciate that you don't skimp when it comes to hunting in Africa.

 

JWS, my information is that Barnes only once had lathe turned bullets in 2006 and only for a very short while - unless there was an original batch in the USA turned from brass. But brass simply is too brittle for hard bone and fractures. It seems that there was not general knowledge that their original monolithics were cone-forced and not turned. Later they went to the present method of cold rolling calibre+ copper wire down to calibre.

 

That timeline, as presented by one of the principles in monolithic bullet manufacture, may or may not be all inclusive or subjective, but does offer some interesting insight into a niche market within the industry.

The evolution of projectiles from solid, round lead balls to today's most advanced bonded and monolithic designs is certainly fascinating. There are redeeming qualities in many different bullet designs, not limited strictly to performance on thick-skinned medium game or dangerous game. For those who shoot frequently and hunt a wide variety of both game and non-game species, we are fortunate to live during a time when we have access to very accurate and reliable bullets, with varying purposes.

It's interesting to note that more and more hunters have come to realize that a very old "monolithic" design, the hard-cast lead bullet with a wide, flat meplat, is an excellent option for hunting at short to mid-range distances. One need not spend a lot of money for turned or swaged solid copper or gilding metal bullets to achieve virtually guaranteed penetration, especially for cartridges that generate modest velocity.

In fact, reducing the speed of just about any bullet designed for big game is a good way to improve its performance, within reason. Even the oldest cup-n-core designs do a very good job, within a given range of impact velocities. Surprisingly, bullets designed for varmint hunting or target shooting can actually perform perfectly on big game, if slowed down considerably. For the fastest, most powerful cartridges, the mono bullets are an excellent choice.

There is a tool for every purpose, including monolithic bullet designs. If some folks feel they are best for all types of shooting and hunting, that's fine, but considering more than 5 million big game animals are harvested in the US each year, the vast majority of which succumb to rather ordinary bullets, it can't realistically be argued that real "Premium" bullets are indicated.

 

I assume you are all aware that

copper is one of the causes of global warming.

 

copper is one of the causes of global warming.

Is that because of the propellant burned behind the bullet? And the heating of adjacent air by friction as the bullet flies to the target?

 

Copy you..

Lima Charlie on that "hot air" thing

 

Lima Charlie on that "hot air" thing

Well played!

 

I'm sure the premium solid bullet is better, but the shape of the thing doesn't lend itself well to "long distance". You know where I hunt and I would be remiss not to "argue the point" that a flat nosed bullet of any construction is going to outperform a much sleeker cup and core bonded spitzer or spire point bullet at distance. There's the sniper crowd with their 6.5 Creedmoor (I spelled it right out of respect) that think becuase they can hit a non-moving man sized target at 1500 meters that they can kill an elk at the same distance, I am not talking (nor do I condone) that kind of distance, but a more reasonable 500 yards where the flat nose bullet's trajectory turns into a rainbow's arc.

This knowing that the flat nose solid was designed NOT to deform or deviate from it's path through animal tissue or bone after impact AND knowing this "argument" will "fly in the face" of those that adhere to the "bullet must expend all it's energy inside the animal" advocates (of which I am not)

I would love to say that a solid bullet will out perform a cup and core bonded bullet in every aspect but I can not, with good conscience, say that is so for I have yet to see one perform at distance like a bonded cup and core.

This from my experience:

A hunter must carefully choose his bullet for the game and distance he hopes to encounter said game at. For instance, where I hunt elk I may "encounter" one at anywhere from 40 feet to 500 yards (or more, but let's keep it 500 for sanity's sake?) By shooting out to 500 yards (and beyond but 500 is my set "limit") and harvesting elk at 464 yards (my furthest) I know what my chosen bullet will do. It's taken a lot of time a monetary effort to be able to say (for instance) that a 180 grain Accubond from my 300RUM will in fact hit 19 inches (average) below line of sight at 500 yards if the rifle is "zeroed" 3 MOA high at 100 yards.

I would need to (and would relish the opportunity) test Peregrine's many offerings in the "standard" calibers (.243, .257, 7mm, .308, 358) that I have before I can say "Yes, what you say is so."



Until I can better those results with a solid, with all due respect, I will remain unswayed from my cup and core beliefs.

RJ

 

Indeed - RJ, aerodynamic drag is aerodynamic drag. It is very rare for us to shoot at anything beyond 200 yards when hunting and out to that distance the difference is neglible - and in any case the hunter will not have both a flat nose and spitzer at the same time in his magazine and trajectory will be known for the known distance

The VRG-4 is a Spitzer expanding bullet as is the Very Low Drag design. I recently shipped some spitzer copper solids to a friend in Texas, I have been away from Pretoria for quite a while and have no new information from Peregrine about their plans for a new agency in the USA. They declined the offer by a three-group consortium I know. GS Custom is doing very well in the USA.

Spitzer and round nose solids - as spitzer and round nose FMJ - do not stay nose ahead in an animal when it glances onto a convex shape heavy bone so when 250+ yards hunting is a requirement then the GRC and Peregrine controlled expansion spitzers are there to use as once expanded the bending and wobbling does not occur - same as other expanding bullets.

My guess is the monolithic solids will be able to penetrate the paper in exactly the same unhindered style?

 

My guess is the monolithic solids will be able to penetrate the paper in exactly the same unhindered style?

My guess as well, but as you know, I "hafta see" with my own eyes, take pictures, chronograph, record data . . .

For distances greater than (say for numbers sake) 500 yards I too would choose a different bullet than the Accubond shows (in actual dead animal autopsy) at that distance (and velocity) to still perform adequately but is on the edge of not and now just becoming a "pencil". A "softer" bullet is needed and a "softer" bullet is just not as accurate, so I must "*****"* closer.

RJ

*Having been born on the Blackfoot Indian Reservation in northern Montana I mean no disrespect to our Native American members. Hopo, hooka hey!!

 

FRED Barnes

It was Fred Barnes who made premium bullets before they had that name. He used pure copper tubing (sized through a RR iron stand with a '58 Cadillac) and pure lead cores and started turning bronze bullets before 1968. I visited him then in Grand Junction, CO and saw Barnes bullets being made. It was Randy Brooks that bought Fred's equipment and company name, moved it to Utah and began Swaged copper bullets in about 1985. The original 225gr. X bullet is what I still shoot in my Whelen because Fred's 275 grain .049 jacketed bullets were rolling my pants legs up everytime I shot my lightweight rifle but it kills like lighting.

I put a .275 Barnes lengthways through a five foot bear at 17 steps and it still weighed 158 grains. I killed two whitetails with one shot and shot a small bull elk through both shoulders with a ten inch aspen tree behind him. The bullet went through that too. Only the Barnes bear bullet has ever been recovered.
The X bullet seems to be just as good.

Nosler was the first commercial 'Premium' bullet in the US but Kynoch had loaded the 'H-Mantle' bullet since the '30s which is made the same way with the same goals.

 

Do those highfalutin bullets kill big game any deader than Partitions? Are more accurate than GameKings?

 

"highfalutin bullets" you call them. Maybe one day compare it to a Sierra game King in practice on the shoulder of an elk and see if you and your wife also do not appreciate the clean kill with no bloodshot meat or a liquified mess of lung and more inside the body cavity. To see the difference between that and a two calibre size entrance and exit holes and a surgically cut 4x calibre wound channel.

There was and is a very good reason these bullets came into being and why so many start-ups and established manufacturers copied them: That reason is there is a BIG need and thus a big market out there - both in the USA, Europe and Africa for better constructed bullets than certainly Sierra Game Kings, Hornady SST, Nosler Ballistic Tips, Nosler Accubonds, Winchester Ballistic Silvertips, etc. Premium bullets are nothing new as the dates show, because of the need for stronger constructed bullets and the demand for them just keep on increasing due to their superior performance on big game.

Many attempts to improve the thin jacket, fragile bullets were made by Woodleigh, Swift (A-Frame) and other manufacturers. All the bonded core bullets like Hornady Interbond and Federal Fusion are also attempts at improving bullet integrity on impact.

Partitions were an already attempt by Nosler as a "premium bullet" that stays together on impact and penetrates properly to improve on the shattering and weight loss and lead ejection of their BTs, but it still divorces itself from a part of itself at the very first moment of impact and from there on the remainder acts as one of the real premium bullets by staying together and in fact penetrates - even though in tumbling fashion. It then suddenly is a full metal jacketed bullet and precisely acts as one in a rather poor imitation of the old RWS (not Kynoch) H-Mantle. ("Mantle" is the German word for jacket).

 

The original Barnes bullet had no "fastening" of the jacket to the core. Upon impact, the "pure copper tubing" would open up and the core would be "spit out" doing (ultimately) little damage to game. Unlike the (at the time) premium Corelokt it (and the Silvertip) were failures. Had the original Barnes had a cannelure it would have been "like" the Corelokt but not the same.

If one dissects an original Barnes bullet by cutting it in half lengthwise with a jewler's saw, the core will fall out. The only thing holding it into the jacket was/is the shape of the nose and the "ring" left by the tubing cutter at the base.

RJ

 

Indeed. The first monolithic lathe turned copper bullets were by GS Custom Bullets in South Africa.

 

Groove Bullets founder was Don Clary .. I was one of the moderators on the Groove Bullets forum .. He used to "pay" us moderators with 50 bullets of our choice every quarter .. At the time of our house fire in 2007 , I had several hundred 272 grain bullets in .375 , they were very accurate .. He could not compete with the bigger outfits , he was in Pennsylvania if I remember correctly . I still have a bullet or two around somewhere ..

 

I've tried hard to like solid non-lead bullets for deer/elk/antelope hunting but have been unsatisfied with the speed at which they kill the game. Barnes X's were the first I tried and they were unreliable in two aspects, inaccurate in several calibers I use and unpredictable terminal performance, lung shots sometimes pencil holed and animals could run for a half mile before dying.

Right know I'm trying the Nosler E-tip, it's accurate but just doesn't expand as quickly or as much as a conventional ballistic tip. My initial feelings about is it will work as long as it's being launched at magnum velocities.

Just a fyi I'm not one of the shoot animals in the front shoulders guys, rightly so my butcher pitches shoulders shot through rather than trying to pick out bone fragments from burger, my dentist and I are happy about that.
Thousands of archery hunters all over the north American continent prove yearly that behind the front shoulder shots are lethal and ethical, most American rifle hunters would concur.

 

What was the “generation” of the Barnes you used? Original X, TSX, TTSX? When you say “...with the speed at which they kill the game”, is that meaning they run off and die, fall right away or within a short distance but stay alive on the ground, stand in place a bit and then fall over, etc.

My sons shoot the TTSX from a 30-06 (130 gr) and 270 Win (110 gr), yes at higher velocity due to the lighter weight. No killing issues, definitely shows the Barnes can be driven fast and work well. I shoot the 200 gr TTSX from my 35 Whelen AI although starting velocity of 2925 fps from the 25” bbl may be higher than what is thought of as standard speed. Holy Grail of elk bullets for the 35 Whelen/AI, IMO, and opens up immediately based on inspection on behind the shoulder shots on mule deer.

In any case, my reason for using the X bullets, and Barnes has said this from the start, is to drop down in bullet weight to gain better trajectory, shot angles can be strongly quartering due to incredible predictable penetration and wound channel, less recoil and little lost meat because it isn’t shedding pieces as it opens up and decelerates so abruptly.

The Nosler E-Tip is a mono bullet! Will never open as rapidly and violently as a ballistic tip. It is basically the same as the Barnes TTSX design... which you already don’t prefer.

The Accubond may be your happy place...

 

a few glaring omissions:

1919 Brenneke TIG
1935 Brenneke TUG
1990 Speer African Grand Slam, solid and soft, both turned from alloy.
date ? Woodleigh Hydro-static Solid

 

Richard, the posted list was for what I term the real premium bullets.

Bonded core bullets as viewed here in Africa represent "good" bullets but not premium.

Certainly the Torpedo Universal Geschoss (TUG) was a good bullet and ahead of its time - whereas the TIG was nothing better than a Nosler Partition. But still the TUG was no better than the Federal Fusion presently made in the USA. The FF is a "good" bullet, simply streets ahead of the best that Nosler can offer for the hunter who does not want liquified lung or liver including large entry and exit holes.

"Good bullets" are way better than the SST's, the BTs, the Accubonds - and the other mass of thin jacketed projectiles that are so popular in the USA. There are many outfitters out here and I am one of them who, some on instruction from the properties where they have hunting rights, do not allow certain brands and designs of bullets, and bullets below certain weights for specific cartridges.

Invariably the first-time visiting hunter already pre-emptively asks which bullet(s) he should use on different species. It is a simple fact that as important as shot placement on instruction of the PH is, the integrity of the bullet is what determines the success of the hunt. The most expensive real premium bullet is such a tiny fraction of the cost of the hunt that those hunters from the USA, Germany, Spain, Italy, England, Holland, Scandinavia, India, China, Bulgaria, Russia, Australia who hunt here - and particularly those who return - bring (or buy here) the best quality bullets / loaded ammunition available for local conditions.

Woodleigh bullets can hardy even be classified as "good" as we repeatedly experience that their cores seperate from the jacket at moderate velocities already at that first moment of impact. Personally I am not at all impressed by Woodleigh bullets. Federal Fusion is of far better quality and integrity.

If a 510 grain Woodleigh soft point from a .470 NE divorced its jacket from the core on a thin-skinned, light boned impala the moment after entering the skin and the jacket stayed right there, with the ragged, already de-formed core tumbling onwards creating a terrible wound channel, it is in the exact same class as the Remington Corelokt which in my experience on deer in Colorado certainly does not have its core "locked". The Remington Corelokt is not even a "good" bullet on this scale.

The "impala-Woodleigh incident" was very fortunate. The USA hunter was after Cape buffalo with his Woodleighs and after a day's tracking they could not get into range of the buffalo that simply kept on traveling. Walking back to where the truck was left earlier that morning they found a family of impala and the PH asked him to shoot one for camp meat. It was a frontal shot from 40 yards with an embarrassing outcome - the PH killing the impala with his .375 H&H. Had that bullet hit the skin of the buffalo it may have turned out to be a bad day for them. The next day the client killed his buffalo with a single shot from the PH's .375 H&H usng a 300gr Peregrine VRG-3 flat nose expanding bullet.

 

What I have seen in the field, the Partition gives the penetration it was designed for when hitting tough skin and bones, over cup and core bullets, which were its competition back in the late 1940’s.

What it does that regular cup and core bullets still do today is the same amount of bloodshot on the entry side in particular. The Partition does what it was built to do, however since penetration was the main selling point when hitting tough resistance upon entry, the mono’s do that as well or better, and with a lighter bullet weight because they don’t shed 1/3 of their weight up front upon impact.

The mono’s tend to have a really consistent diameter of wound channel for the entire length of the wound channel. Partitions make a bigger initial wound channel, then taper off to smaller diameter because the front core is sacrificed and petals are peeled back along the shank.

Great bullet in the Partition, for me the mono’s make more of a case to handle the job at hand in this day and age.

 

Curious what you fellas think of the Lapua Mega-bullet. I prefer using the heavier bullets for caliber at the associated moderate velocities, as they seem to penetrate all the way thru, not blow half the meat away, & kill very effectively. The 155 grain Mega shoots remarkably well in my 6.5 Creedmoor (sub MOA), but I have yet to shoot a critter with them. Most of my big game kills have been with the 30 caliber 200 grain Partition & the 180 grain RN Hornady Interlock @ around 2500 fps & I've yet to have a reason to complain. Back in my younger days I would drive bullets as fast as I could, but that seemed to cause poorer bullet performance than my approach now. What say you??

 

couldn't agree more....except...

Curious what you fellas think of the Lapua Mega-bullet. I prefer using the heavier bullets for caliber at the associated moderate velocities, as they seem to penetrate all the way thru, not blow half the meat away, & kill very effectively. The 155 grain Mega shoots remarkably well in my 6.5 Creedmoor (sub MOA), but I have yet to shoot a critter with them. Most of my big game kills have been with the 30 caliber 200 grain Partition & the 180 grain RN Hornady Interlock @ around 2500 fps & I've yet to have a reason to complain. Back in my younger days & would drive bullets as fast as I could, but that seemed to cause poorer bullet performance than my approach now. What say you??

when it comes to coyotes and light (<100# deer), then I prefer lighter, faster, varmint type bullets like

110gr sierra hollow points in .308 --- 115gr speer hollow points in .284 both @ 3000-3300 fps

 

HH, I have no personal experience of any Lapua components - especially their bullets; only know that Lapua is the brand cases my sons prefer when they can not obtain local PMP brass. A locked core cup and core bullet with a brass jacket and not copper.

Regarding the rest of your post I can only repeat the Americanism: "right on"! to all you say about bullet weight and velocity.

 

We been down this road before

At some point in these conversations about bullets started by MM it comes down to the two very different types of hunting experienced by people in south Africa and America.
Most hunters on this forum and American hunters in general hunt the whitetail deer, second only to the mule deer followed by elk and pronghorn antelope. Elk can be tough to kill but probably not as difficult as most of the large African undulates.

American hunters for the most part not guided by professional hunters, they're on their own, African hunters guided 100% of the time, they always have a support team to call shots and track game.

American hunters either butcher the game themselves or take it to someone they have a relationship with, a very high percentage of the meat ends up in their freezer and is consumed over the course of the year.
African hunters don't field dress their game or have anything to do with the butchering process, none of it goes home with them, depending on the hunt they may eat game that was taken earlier by someone else.
I've been told a good portion of game meat is donated to people in need, if I were running a hunting operation with paying clients they would get the select cuts of meat, not front shoulders with bullet holes and bone fragments.
It's totally understandable that African guides like front shoulder shots especially when they insist on certain bullet weights and designs that almost guarantee the bone is broken, whatever it takes to make certain the animal is on the ground for the pictures, fees, back slapping and gratuity.

 

American hunters for the most part not guided by professional hunters, they're on their own, African hunters guided 100% of the time, they always have a support team to call shots and track game.

American hunters either butcher the game themselves or take it to someone they have a relationship with, a very high percentage of the meat ends up in their freezer and is consumed over the course of the year.

African hunters don't field dress their game or have anything to do with the butchering process, none of it goes home with them, depending on the hunt they may eat game that was taken earlier by someone else.

Totally wrong information.

We hunt mostly for the meat and local hunters are very, very seldom guided - the existence of the PH industry is for visiting hunters. Very few trophies are taken as it is not part of our culture - and we field dress all the time and at home process the meat ourselves which is the very reason for top chambers of the heart shots with good bullets with little meat spoilage.

One can only guess where such incorrect stories have their origin. Geez, what nonsense all of the above is - whoever started this tale.

 

Excellent post, KB.

It must be remembered that South Africa has somewhere around 15 to 18 million game animals, including both large and small, while the US has more than 20 million whitetails and another 2.5 million between elk, mule deer and pronghorn. Both countries have enjoyed tremendous success in conservation, bringing many species back from the brink of extinction, as well as reintroducing populations to areas where they were extirpated.

Many African species are of the thick-skinned, medium game variety, which are demonstrably more difficult to kill; monolithic bullets make good sense for humane harvest of such. With the exception of elk and the big bears, game animals in the US are not as hard to kill, so the traditional, expanding, jacketed lead bullets, of varying designs, are perfectly suitable.

While very few Americans are subsistence hunters these days, it is true that most of us hunt with a primary objective of putting meat in the freezer, versus putting a mount on the wall. More important than that, hunting in America is almost always a family affair, where spending time with friends and loved ones is the actual goal. With close to 8 million big game animals harvested annually, we aren't there just to hang out, but quality time out doors and quality meat in the freezer are both worthy goals.

You don't need "premium" bullets to achieve either.

 

I regularly see how Nosler Ballistic Tips and Accubonds and Remington CoreLokts fail on little mule deer and horribly fail on elk in Colorado. There is a greater demand for South African manufactured premium+ bullets from the USA than there is in South Africa because of the many many more hunters in the 300 million population. In fact, neither Peregrine or GSC or Rhino can meet the USA demand despite GSC having set up a factory in the USA and Peregrine is contemplating the same. More and more hunters see the immediate advantage of a premium bullet.

Barnes would not have gone that route if there was not a demand for a bullet better than the Noslers and the Remingtons and even the Hornady Interbonds, so between Barnes and Peregrine and GSC and Rhino and the many other manufacturers mentioned in my list the demand is still not met.

Federal did not design and market their most excellent bonded core Fusion bullets on a thumb suck for the South African market, but for the USA market because informed hunters wanted that performance and integrity. It had become by sheer quality the most bought USA manufactured bullet of all time out here.

 

Having hunted Africa quite a few times , I understand the need for a tough bullet .. I am a proponent in the states of a high BC bullet , my high BC is " ballistically challenged ", gimme a big fat round nose or cast with a big meplat and I am happy here ..

 

Ballistically Challenged...

Having hunted Africa quite a few times , I understand the need for a tough bullet .. I am a proponent in the states of a high BC bullet , my high BC is " ballistically challenged ", gimme a big fat round nose or cast with a big meplat and I am happy here ..

Well how about that... That is neat!

Fact is that the GSC flat nose has less drag at even subsonic speed than a round nose of the same calibre. I have not seen the aerodynamic mathematics for my Peregrine favourite FN - but out to 200 yards there is no difference in reality between that FN and a spitzer.

 

Here's a sample of the mixed...

https://www.federalpremium.com/products/rifle/fusion/fusion-rifle/f243fs1

results some people got with those bullets.

 

https://www.federalpremium.com/products/rifle/fusion/fusion-rifle/f243fs1

results some people got with those bullets.

Read some of the negative comments - even the best bullet can not make up for poor shot placement. I have seen blue wildebeest soak up 30-06 bullets and also impala and blesbok and Cape buffalo. Just last year an associate PH in Zimbabwe finally shot the Cape buffalo that had by then 13 Win Mag 500 gr bullets in its body from his client's M70.

 

MM I think you and I had this discussion via PM and email several years ago ..

 

Maybe you should talk to me again, AZR?

The sable are bigger - and more in numbers, wildebeest have spread their horns still wider, the kudu still look at you in disdain and if you do not shoot it in 5 seconds it disappears in a flash, nyala strut around as if nothing else belong on the property, impala are seen around every bend of the bendy roads through the bush, zebra came out of last season's drought looking like rich retirees, the eland seem bulkier than they were last year and we have decided to relocate the band of Cape buffalo bulls on the property to another venue near the Zimbabwe border and that will be an interesting excercise to partake in - shooting a tranquilizer dart and not a 300 gr .375 H&H bullet into it from 30 yards, waiting for it to get over the indignation and pain in the rump and go to sleep, manhandling each into the custom made trailer with its ten compartments, injecting the wake-up meds into its rump and see it wake up immediately without being groggy, driving them the 500 miles to the north and letting them loose on their new 12,000 acre stomping grounds. It is still exciting to do this not for loading - but darting five in short order to take blood samples for tests for diseases with five unconscious buffalo around you and two guys running to wake each one up - and then run to the truck make for a lot of laughs. I mentioned in another thread how a ranch owner got severely gored but survived because not once was any vital organ perforated. Certainly the tranquilizer is of premium quality local design as is the dart gun and darts and revival medicine.

Oh, as an aside - the Very Long Range high aspect ratio (VLR) Peregrine controlled expansion bullets seem to bear up to the accuracy specs. I debated the coy (to our conservative ears) title designation with the Peregrine CEO and he said THAT is what the US user wants to hear. ("Very Low Drag" has already been claimed by some other premium bullet manufacturer!)

Added: Regarding other statements in this thread by other posters about Africa animals having tougher skins: you and those thousands of hunters that come here from foreign lands can testify to the fact that except for Cape buffalo, Giraffe and Elephant NO Africa antelope has a skin thicker or stronger than any antlered game in the USA. In fact, due to USA cold winters the game out there have thicker and fattier skins and longer hair which make them "tougher".

After the fifth shot with a .300 Win Mag and 150 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips on a deer size blesbok how often do we hear "Geez these things are tough, I should have brought my .338 Win Mag!" (No... the 7x57 or 7mm-08 with good bullets like a 160 gr Federal Fusion AND a proper heart shot through the shoulders would have killed it in its tracks).

 

I hear Ya....

I'm still trying to resolve the "assessing accuracy" thread from 2015.

 

MM you and I were not in disagreement mate .. We had a rather cordial exchange as I recall ..

 

No disagreement, sure!



Sure! The discussion was very positive and flowing.

There is nothing in my post that suggests otherwise, I am sure?

 

was referring to the exchange several years ago ... all is good with us mate ..

 

How many people arguing bullets have ever hunted Africa? I love my 6mm. 95 gr. partition for Antelope and Whitetail, but I don't thing for other than a few animals, I would ever bring that rifle there.

Get over yourselves.....Geeze.

Edited: 7 X 57 killed a lot of Elephants. Would you recommend it?

 

The .308W has killed more elephant cleanly than all other calibres in history combined, with flat nose 150 gr brass solids.

JWS the old 6.5x58 Portuguese, 6.5x57 Mauser and 6.5x55 Swede are very popular here. These are factory loaded with 140 and 156 gr locked core bullets and on big game the latter equals everything the 7mms and .30" calibres do. I should like to see the penetration through eland shoulder with a Portuguese and 150 grain Peregrine monolithic bullet.