I'm looking at getting a .223 but the guy says it's the Ackley Improved. I know factory ammo can be used in the chamber to get fireformed cases, but what about empty brass? What is a good fireforming load? I could load them up normally, but that seems like a waste of powder and bullet. I was hoping for something where I could put some tissue in the case (or CoW) and a wax plug in the neck and be good to go, but I have no idea what powder and what size charge to use. I assume standard pistol primers would work?
crossfire
I neck and fire form my 257 Wildcat(7x57R cases), which is close to AI measurements and also fire form my 7-30 Waters from 30-30. For both I use a mild standard book load with a normal hunting bullet. I might be lucky but I have killed a number of deer with both fire form loads which prove to be as near darn it is to swearing on paper. The 223 uses such a small amount of powder, it would not be overly expensive to try half a dozen. I tend to use the Hornady book max load less 10% or a touch less. Seems a waste of powder to me if your not actually shooting at something furry at the same time, same as a waste of powder packing it in to gain another 100fps when a mild load will still kill the soft furry thing just the same and that excess powder can go into another case. OK, I know the reply is going to be, well why have a wildcat which normally means making room for more powder ... for me it was the joy of seeing blank faces when they ask what calibre your shooting, as to my knowledge, my 257RRI is the only one in the Universe.
Nice round that AI 223, have fun.
Nice round that AI 223, have fun.
When fireforming 6.5JDJ, 30 Herrett or 7-30 Waters, I do the same thing as SS...a middling charge under a medium to heavy (for caliber) bullet. It's definitely not a waste of powder or bullet...you're just shooting your rifle. The fact that the case goes in with one geometry and comes out with another doesn't matter at all. The accuracy with most fireforming loads is plenty good enough to enjoy shooting or varmint hunting.
The one question I have is what kind of firearm is this 223AI chambered in?
The one question I have is what kind of firearm is this 223AI chambered in?
How you fire form and whether it is a waste of a good bullet depends on the cartridge you are creating.
1. Back in the day I shot metallic handgun silhouette with a T/C contender in 7mm TCU. In this case the .223 Rem is necked up to 7mm, and the shoulder is blown forward to a sharper angle with a bit less taper overall in the case - which like most improved cartridges creates an excessive head space issue.
For fire forming, I'd seat the bullet out far enough that it would engage the rifling, essentially head spacing the cartridge on the bullet. The resulting loads were quite accurate and very usable.
2. More recently, given the lack of .375 Win brass I fire formed new .30-30 brass to .375 Win dimensions using 8 grains of Unique under a case full of cream of wheat. I add the powder then top it with C of W to the base of the neck, and then hold it in place with a pea sized wad of toilet paper. When fired vertically the cases come out with nice, square case mouths at a cost of about $.06 each.
Bullseye and Red Dot are other powders often used for fire forming with cream of wheat or cornmeal.
You want to be careful with the cream of wheat or corn meal approach when the destination case is still a bottle necked case, as it's an approach better suited to blowing the neck all the way out to a straight case. However, I have encountered people who use 8 grains if Bullseye under 12 grains of cornmeal with a Tp wad to hold it in place. It gets most of the shoulder blown forward - not completely, but enough to get you close enough for the first real .223 AI load.
3. When necking a cartridge down to a smaller neck diameter before fire forming, you can short size it and leave a step in the neck just in front of the shoulder. You'll have to experiment through trial and error with progressively shorter die settings until you get the step just the right distance down the neck, but once there the cartridge will headspace on the step and allow you to fire form using a bullet, with a reasonable expectation of usable accuracy and no concerns about excessive case stretch.
This approach works great when fire forming 7x30 Waters brass from .30-30 brass.
In some cases you can neck the case up slightly, then neck it back down to create the required head spacing step in the shoulder. Annealing the case when you're done should breath the full case life back into it. But I'd also recommend using new brass with this approach.
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Fortunately with the .223 AI, none of the above is needed as all you are doing i increasing the shoulder angle and blowing some of the taper out. The shoulder isn't being moved forward in the .223 AI so it should still properly headpiece and you can just fire a standard .223 round in the chamber, using the fire forming load for normal shooting purposes.
1. Back in the day I shot metallic handgun silhouette with a T/C contender in 7mm TCU. In this case the .223 Rem is necked up to 7mm, and the shoulder is blown forward to a sharper angle with a bit less taper overall in the case - which like most improved cartridges creates an excessive head space issue.
For fire forming, I'd seat the bullet out far enough that it would engage the rifling, essentially head spacing the cartridge on the bullet. The resulting loads were quite accurate and very usable.
2. More recently, given the lack of .375 Win brass I fire formed new .30-30 brass to .375 Win dimensions using 8 grains of Unique under a case full of cream of wheat. I add the powder then top it with C of W to the base of the neck, and then hold it in place with a pea sized wad of toilet paper. When fired vertically the cases come out with nice, square case mouths at a cost of about $.06 each.
Bullseye and Red Dot are other powders often used for fire forming with cream of wheat or cornmeal.
You want to be careful with the cream of wheat or corn meal approach when the destination case is still a bottle necked case, as it's an approach better suited to blowing the neck all the way out to a straight case. However, I have encountered people who use 8 grains if Bullseye under 12 grains of cornmeal with a Tp wad to hold it in place. It gets most of the shoulder blown forward - not completely, but enough to get you close enough for the first real .223 AI load.
3. When necking a cartridge down to a smaller neck diameter before fire forming, you can short size it and leave a step in the neck just in front of the shoulder. You'll have to experiment through trial and error with progressively shorter die settings until you get the step just the right distance down the neck, but once there the cartridge will headspace on the step and allow you to fire form using a bullet, with a reasonable expectation of usable accuracy and no concerns about excessive case stretch.
This approach works great when fire forming 7x30 Waters brass from .30-30 brass.
In some cases you can neck the case up slightly, then neck it back down to create the required head spacing step in the shoulder. Annealing the case when you're done should breath the full case life back into it. But I'd also recommend using new brass with this approach.
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Fortunately with the .223 AI, none of the above is needed as all you are doing i increasing the shoulder angle and blowing some of the taper out. The shoulder isn't being moved forward in the .223 AI so it should still properly headpiece and you can just fire a standard .223 round in the chamber, using the fire forming load for normal shooting purposes.
I do the same thing as Model 52 with my 7 T/CU. However, for my .223 AI, I did a combination of two things, I just shot the loaded .223 Remington ammo at critters, or on days I just wanted to fireform, I used 8 gr of Unique, then used cream of wheat poured on top of that only up to the shoulder, then topped it off with Elmers Glue, let dry over night and then shot away. The brass filled out sufficiently, but not completely. I was careful to not compact the cream of wheat. Worked for me, but yours may differ.
Allen
Allen
I fire-form a variety of calibers for customers using Unique and grits. I'm a Southerner and it seems suitable. I load Unique, then a small bit of toilet paper, then fill with grits and cap by just scraping a plug off a brick of candle wax. Load it hot enough to flush the primer and get a sharp shoulder.
In the West at certain times of year, there is a white moth that boils out of Cedar trees and other bushy evergreens. I was fire-forming a bunch of 318 WR Express in a nice old Westley magazine rifle and the moths had made a great sport of it. Then the deputy sheriff showed up.
A rather sensitive neighbor bought a million dollar house about a half mile from mine and had been watching with some interest through a spotting scope as I wildly shot a very loud rifle in all directions. When she saw me 'shoot' towards her, she called the law. I had to demonstrate to the deputy that nothing penetrated a cardboard box at 20 feet and he passed the word on to the worrisome city person 'next door'.
In the West at certain times of year, there is a white moth that boils out of Cedar trees and other bushy evergreens. I was fire-forming a bunch of 318 WR Express in a nice old Westley magazine rifle and the moths had made a great sport of it. Then the deputy sheriff showed up.
A rather sensitive neighbor bought a million dollar house about a half mile from mine and had been watching with some interest through a spotting scope as I wildly shot a very loud rifle in all directions. When she saw me 'shoot' towards her, she called the law. I had to demonstrate to the deputy that nothing penetrated a cardboard box at 20 feet and he passed the word on to the worrisome city person 'next door'.
It's not rocket science. Do it the way P.O. Ackley told you.
A full power load. You'll probably find that the accuracy will be very good. Benchrest shooters fireform their 6PPC cases with a full load and will often shoot them in matches because they are as accurate as the fire-formed cases.
If you don't know what P.O. said, read his books.
A full power load. You'll probably find that the accuracy will be very good. Benchrest shooters fireform their 6PPC cases with a full load and will often shoot them in matches because they are as accurate as the fire-formed cases.
If you don't know what P.O. said, read his books.
If it were me, I would just pick up some cheap factory ammo and go ahve fun with it for a while. You might be surprised like i was at just how well it might shoot for you.
I purchased a 14" bull barrel in 223 AI barrel for my Contender quite a few years ago. When I got it, I had thoughts of loading this that and the other. For brass I figured it was easiest to simply pick up some factory loads and use them to play with until I got enough cases to do some load work up's.
I wasn't looking for top end performance simply something to get trigger time with and picked up some mixed brands and went forth. Then Winchester put out their 40rd Varmint Packs using the 40gr JHP and I just had to try one. Well that was about three years after I got the barrel, and I still haven't worked up a load for it to this day. I cannot bring myself to waste the time and effort trying to beat out what those Win loads will produce time and time again. The below pic is from these Winchester factory loads and has repeated so many times it is ridiculous. I have seen quite a few others report the same type accuracy from several different platforms as well.
10 rounds @ 100yds from a rest.
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I have 14 full boxes of the ammo and a gallon zip lock 3/4's full of formed cases just in case I finally do decide to try something else but they will probably be passed on to my grandsons to use once I am pushing Daisey's. The listed velocity on the box is 3600fps and I get 3250 so, some loss, but not enough to matter for squirrels and other critters up to coyote size.
I purchased a 14" bull barrel in 223 AI barrel for my Contender quite a few years ago. When I got it, I had thoughts of loading this that and the other. For brass I figured it was easiest to simply pick up some factory loads and use them to play with until I got enough cases to do some load work up's.
I wasn't looking for top end performance simply something to get trigger time with and picked up some mixed brands and went forth. Then Winchester put out their 40rd Varmint Packs using the 40gr JHP and I just had to try one. Well that was about three years after I got the barrel, and I still haven't worked up a load for it to this day. I cannot bring myself to waste the time and effort trying to beat out what those Win loads will produce time and time again. The below pic is from these Winchester factory loads and has repeated so many times it is ridiculous. I have seen quite a few others report the same type accuracy from several different platforms as well.
10 rounds @ 100yds from a rest.
I have 14 full boxes of the ammo and a gallon zip lock 3/4's full of formed cases just in case I finally do decide to try something else but they will probably be passed on to my grandsons to use once I am pushing Daisey's. The listed velocity on the box is 3600fps and I get 3250 so, some loss, but not enough to matter for squirrels and other critters up to coyote size.
Attachments
If chambered correctly, as per Ackley reamer drawings, with a FACTORY CASE, whether loaded or unprimed cases, there should be NEGATIVE HEADSPACE OF .005". This negative dimension holds the head of the case FIRMLY against the bolt face, there is no excessive headspace issue. If re-chambering from a standard chamber the barrel MUST be set back 1 turn to be done correctly, if your rifle wasn't done this way, there is only 1 option, you MUST use handloads with the bullet into the lands by a minimum of .010", factory ammo will separate if fired in this condition.
To fireform, I use a fast shotgun powder, Clays is perfect because it is bulky and fills most of the case, use a twist of TP, poke it in firmly, but not too tight and fire. I generally start at 1/4 of normal loads and increase the charge in .5gr increments until shoulders are square and the body is fully blown out. I sometimes get a body that isn't fully blown out down near the base, it's not a problem as the next firing will blow it out anyway.
I use this method to form 22-250AI, 257BobAI and 375 Weatherby, 270 Weatherby and 300 Weatherby when brass is hard to find.
I can't see how using a bullet when fireforming is good for barrel life, even when using it for hunting, the idea is to GAIN PERFORMANCE, NOT LOSE PERFORMANCE. My 375 Weatherby loses close to 200fps with factory 375 H&H ammo, but gains 200fps when loaded as the Weatherby case.
Cheers.
To fireform, I use a fast shotgun powder, Clays is perfect because it is bulky and fills most of the case, use a twist of TP, poke it in firmly, but not too tight and fire. I generally start at 1/4 of normal loads and increase the charge in .5gr increments until shoulders are square and the body is fully blown out. I sometimes get a body that isn't fully blown out down near the base, it's not a problem as the next firing will blow it out anyway.
I use this method to form 22-250AI, 257BobAI and 375 Weatherby, 270 Weatherby and 300 Weatherby when brass is hard to find.
I can't see how using a bullet when fireforming is good for barrel life, even when using it for hunting, the idea is to GAIN PERFORMANCE, NOT LOSE PERFORMANCE. My 375 Weatherby loses close to 200fps with factory 375 H&H ammo, but gains 200fps when loaded as the Weatherby case.
Cheers.
@ the OP: Too bad someone has a Savage Striker in a cool caliber but isn't making use of it. If you buy it you should be able to just shoot factory ammo (or similar handloads) and enjoy shooting your new gun.
@ 41 Mag: I can't blame you for not trying to handload for your barrel...you couldn't realistically expect to do any better than that!
@ 41 Mag: I can't blame you for not trying to handload for your barrel...you couldn't realistically expect to do any better than that!
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