[William Iorg]

I have the 457122HP mold but have not shot the bullet in the .45 Colt.

I also have the 457191 300 grain solid bullet (.45-90 express bullet). I have shot this bullet in the .45 Colt - the Winchester Model 94 Trapper and a 10" TC barrel in .45 Colt. My mold is an old one and not quite round. When I size it down to .455" it about wipes the grease grooves off. I may have some in a box I'll look and see. If I do I'll post a picture.

 

[William Iorg]

"So, how do you like your M94 in .45Colt?"

It is actualy my wifes. She lets me load for it and clean it....
It is a color case hardened and checkered stock trapper. There are some pictures of it somewhere on the Model 94 forum here.
This is a great little rifle. It will feed any bullet shape. My wife likes it for the thump the bullets make on the backstop. She generaly shoots clay birds with it. The heaviest bullet we have shot regularly in it is Lee 300 grain round flat. This is a weight forward design but not really an LBT style bullet.

"Actually, I'm trying to decide between the Marlin 1894 and the Winchester 94. Of the two, I want a carbine that will digest the widest selection of esoteric handloads."

If those were my requirements I would choose the Winchester. In my experiance they will feed anything.


"The first mould I'd probably acquire is the RCBS 45-270"

Personaly I would not spend time on the RCBS bullet. I would look at what Marshal has to offer and try a selection of Beartooth LBT style bullets. Nothing I have played with beats the LBT style bullet for down range performance/penetration. Trying a selection of what is available will give you and idea of what kind of mold to Veral Smith cut for you.

There are several things to remember here. First, get a hold of Ken Waters Pet Loads article on loadinghigh performance .45 Colts for the Winchester Trapper.
Second remember that recoil climbs fast in this rifle, give some thoughts to a Past pad for bench work. I dont worry about pads much in the field and have left the thin pad on my .444 Timber rifle. It kicks some but I dont think much about it when hunting. At the bench I wear a pad.
If you dont haveit yet, get Veral Smiths book Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets. I have made up an index for this book. Not the best but works for me. It is an interesting book.
Third, give a lot of thought to your sight selection. Your sights need to be strong. If you choose a scope start antother thread and we will all give you our two cents worth!

 

[William Iorg]

"A scoped levergun! What the heck is this world coming to"

Unfortunatly middle age has my front sight squarely in its hands!


"Anyway, I guess I'll have to drill some holes in the receiver because Winchester seems to believe the Williams FP (my choice for a rear sight these days) is out of style.


William makes a reciever sight that atteches by the two rear scope base holes. No need for drilling!

I had ment to mention that in addition to the ability to feed about any bullet you seat in a case the Winchester in pistol calibers is not as sensitive to COAL as the Marlin 1894 in pistol calibers. This will give you quite a bit of wiggle room when it comes to load testing.


" I'd even want to play with some APC type bullets for fun and home defense loads."


My wife has shot several thousand 230 lead round nose .45 ACP bullets through her rifle at modest velocities. Great fun!

 

[William Iorg]

" With all due respect though, I'm not impressed by 2.5" to 3" groups at 100 yards unless you're shooting open sights on that Marlin. "

I think that pretty good shooting for almost any day with an untuned factory lever action, recievcer sight (I assume) or low power scope. It is pretty hard to do everything the same, five times in a row with a pretty heavy load. 1380 fps with a 322 grain bullet is a pretty good load for a light leveraction. Managing recoil, using the same sight setting, handling recoil (follow through) are all pretty tough and those heavy -for the caliber bullets will have you talking too yourself!
If you reduce the velocity to the 1000 fps level of even slower you can really tighten up the groups.

"Typically, my goal for a lever action rifle with a receiver sight and fine post or crosshair is in the 1-1.5 MOA range for three to five rounds. "

That is a pretty tough goal for cast bullets and any lever action rifle. .44 caliber an up at low velocity you will shoot a few groups like that. Believe it or not you may come cloeser to your goal with a good paper patch bullet.

"Anyway, please describe any casting pitfalls you have run into with 457122 and how you solved them."

I personaly have had no pit falls with the 457122 mold. I have been casting hollow points with Lyman molds since I was a teen ager and I had a few problems early on. I run the melt Hot! I dip the pin into the melt initialy to get it vey hot. I often dip the sprue plate into the melt to get it hot. As long as the mold and pin start off hot and your melt is hot your only problem is paitience.

 

[William Iorg]

I have thought about a hot plate but never got around to getting one. Its on my "someday" and "nice to have" list.

I have posted three pictures of the 457122 loaded in the .45 Colt. Next to it is the NEI solid nose gas check version of the Gould bullet. Then next to it is the Lyman 454616 245 grain bullet. The large lube grooves are helpful with black powder in the summer.
This one is loaded just under 1.600" - about 1.595". This length gives a little better accuracy in the Winchester. There is plenty of powder room so loading them shorter is not a problem.

[Moderator -if the pictures are duplicates feel free to delete them. I am still learning how to operate the "new" camera]

 

[William Iorg]

Well I am a slow learner!

 

[William Iorg]

Is the first bullet on the left 457122 sized to .454"? It looks great!TMC

Yes, the seated bullet and the first in line is the Lyman 457122. This one sized to .457". I belled the full length sized case and seated the .457" bullet 1.595" with no problems. The cartridge chambered in the Winchester M-94AE Trapper with no difficulty. ( This rifle prefers the shorter length to the nominal length of 1.600") I have not tried the NEI solid bulet setting next to it in the Winchester yet. NEI lists this bullet as their #338 with a nominal weight of 355 grains. (320 grains without the gas check shank). While not an exact copy of the Gould bullet it is close. I have used them both in the Marlin Guide gun and they both shoot very well. I have killed several deer with the Gould bullet but only one with the NEI bullet.
The Lyman muzzle loader bullet is a great plinker. there is .45 Colt load data for it in the Lyman pistol book.

 

[William Iorg]

John,

"One thing about the 457122/20/296/.45 Colt load."

I intend to try your 296 load.


"William, that makes 2 Winchester's, 1 Marlin, and 3 .45 Colt Rugers that will chamber .45 Colt cartridges loaded with .457" bullets."

I think we have enough data there to say the 457122 will work in most all .45 Colts. I intend to try it in my wifes S&W Model 25 also - just to see if it will chamber and how long the cylinder is.

I also have the Lyman 300 grain 457191 mold. I dont have any cast up right now but I have shot some of them through the Winchester and they shot fine.

 

[William Iorg]

I dont see how these bullets can lead regardless of how soft they are. At .457" they will fill the throat. If gas is not able to get around them they will not lead.

I shoot pretty soft lead in all of my rifles. In my Guide Gun I will sometimes see light lead up toward the muzzle. This brushes out without difficulty.
Once I got the idea of filling the troat firmly in my head I have not suffered serious leading problems.

I too use 50 50 Alox exclusivly. I have tried some of the more exotic lubricants but have always returned to Alox. I dont have a prefference in brand and have used Lyman, Javalina and Lee with equal results.

 

[William Iorg]

"I'm under the impression that if the shot's pressure curve doesn't suit the alloy, fouling will be deposited in the bbl regardless of fit. "

That is almost right. If you go over to Charles Hamiltons Yahoo list: CB-L and look for posts by Norm Johnson you will learn a great deal about bullet fit. Norm shoots UNLUBED cast bullets in handguns and rifles.
Following Norms guidelines we found that we can shoot the LBT style NEI 180 grain bullet in the Winchester Model 94AE Trapper with no lube at full power. We have shot many of these and were forced to load them in front of witnesses at San Angelo Gun Club to prove it! In the Winchester, the NEI bullet does not leave a lead deposit in the 16" barrel. Norm gives a better description of the load technique and why it works than I can. I should point out that if the bullet does not fit it will lead from leade to muzzle!

 

[William Iorg]

While loading the 457122HP bullets I took a little look around at other heavy bullet data for the .45 Colt.
Frank Marshall in the Fouling Shot #52 described a philosophy of heavy for the caliber bullets he dubbed BOWM: Bench of Woods Marshall. These heavy for the caliber bullets are best described as providing a 10 to 15% weight increase and 30 to 50% increase in bore ride bearing surface.
Frank Marshall described his use of the Ideal 457191 300 grain bullet sized to .457 in the .45 Colt.
Two quotes from the article: A notable as the whump increase, was the improved accuracy of this longer bearing overall form.
I dont recommend this .45 Colt hot magnumizing and mention it only due to the notable accuracy with the semi-BOWM #457191 bullet.

Next, Forrest Asmus in Fouling Shot #64 (1985) describes his use of the Lyman 457191 300 grain bullet in his 7.5 .45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk. Asmus used a load of 22.0 grains of Winchester 296 with the CCI 350 Magnum primer. Starting off with a bullet sized .458 diameter, he had ignition problems due to his inability to place a heavy crimp on the bullet. Reducing his bullet diameter to .453 diameter (!) he was able to place a firm crimp on the bullet and improved his ignition.
Asmus estimated his velocity as around 1200 fps and described the recoil as impressive.

Serious discussion in the mainstream press about the use of heavy bullets in .45 Colt rifles appears to be limited to three articles.

The first is Ken Waters Pet Loads article from Handloader #149, Jan/Feb 1991. Using a Winchester Model 94 Trapper Waters described a serious effort to load the .45 Colt cartridge to higher performance levels in a rifle. Waters pushed the 240 grain bullets to 1480 fps, 250 grain bullets to 1450 fps, and 260 grain bullets to 1400 fps. Waters describes in detail his experiences with the Colt cartridge, heavy bullets and the Winchester rifle. It is an early bit of writing for what is now considered the routine use of heavy bullets at high pressure in the .45 Colt. We handloaders have learned quite a bit since 1991. I am over simplifying this and ignoring the pioneering efforts of many handgun metallic silhouette shooters dating back as far as the mid 1970s. But I am looking primarily in the mainstream press.

Second is Jay Turners article in Rifle #151, Jan/Feb 1994. Turner also used the Winchester Trapper in .45 Colt. He pushed the 300 grain Hornady XTP to 1575 fps, the 300 grain Speer flat nose to 1485 fps, the 300 grain LBT lead bullet to 1650 fps, the 300 grain Hornady hollow point to 1630 fps and the 340 grain Lee .457” dia. flat nose cast bullet to 1404 fps.

Both of these are very informative articles to those of us looking for high performance from the .45 Colt lever action rifle and worth the effort of looking up.

The third article is by Ross Seyfried from Handloader #205, June/July 2000. Seyfrieds article entitled “Turbosharging the .45 Colt is confined to the use of the 7.5 Ruger Bisley. Seyfried drove the 300 grain LBT cast bullets to 1330 fps and used LBT style bullets as heavy as 350 grains.

The above article is a serious beginning for anyone wanting to explore heavy bullets in the .45 Colt rifle. I am interested in hearing about any other articles containing specific load information on the use of heavy bullets in these rifles. For those using the .454 Rifles dont overlook 2guntommy and his 454 website. Beartooth forum member dztram frequents both boards.

I should be able to shoot my loads tomorrow morning.

 

[William Iorg]

Well, shot the Colt loads in the back yard this morning. All the Dove hunters out making noise - thought I would too.

Both bullets used 20.0 grains of Winchester 296 and Remington Lg Pistol primers.

The Lyman 457122 averaged 355.5 grains and sized to .457" and seated to 1.600". Lubed with Javalina Alox. All of these were loaded in Remington brass. A six shot string averaged 1411 fps from the 16" Winchester Trapper. The E was 12 and the SD 6 fps. At fifty yards these shot 3.5" lower than my 250 grain load. Group was just under three inches from my wobbly bench using open sights.

The NEI solid version of the Gould bullet averaged 368.8 grains lubed with Javalina Alox and fitted with Hornady gas checks. I mixed the brass on these. Used Starline, Remington, Winchester and CBC. Six of these averaged 1405 fps with an E of 10 and SD of 5 fps. Not a lot of difference in point of impact. just a little smaller groups perhaps.

I need to shoot these at the range from a good bench. There was no indication of leading from either bullet. With the Lyman bullet giving about 1557 fpe and the NEI bullet giving 1600 fpe there seems to plenty for deer hunting at least.

 

[William Iorg]

First, about Yahoo groups. I suggest that you select Daily Digest. That will give you ne or two e-mails a day. If you dont want any select no-E-mail. This will allow you to search the past posts from the beginning.

If you want the heaviest bullet available go for the LBT 350 grain. Marshall has a wide selection of bullets for the .454 Casull, up to 405 grains I think. I would start with a selection of these to see what shot best. Then you could order a mold or just stay with Marshall's bullets.

NEI has the #337 350 grain bullet. There are several threads on the CB-L about NEI. The general opinion - last I remember is they now have their act together.

You can look at the LBT catalog on the front page of Leverguns.

I restricted myself to 1.600" COAL due to something I read once about Winchester 296 and Hodgdon 110 giving their best performance when the bullet is seated against the powder coloum.
Ross Seyfried said once that with a five shot revolver you could load all of the 296 you could get into the case and still seat the bullet against the powder and within the cylinders overall length. Not exactly a quote - and he probably would say I over simplified it!

I think 350 grains is the heaviest bullet that is useful in the .45 Colt but that is only a guess. Things are changing pretty fast. I need to work with Hodgdon 'Lil Gun before I use absolutes!
It is important to note that while I was able to exceed standard "high pressure" Colt loads in handguns by 350 to 400 fps, the custom 7.5" 5 shot handguns only give up 100 to 150 fps to the 16" rifle.

My thoughts at the moment are that Hodgdon 'Lil Gun or 295 and 110 are the powders of choice for heavy bullet loads. These powders should not require an excessive COAL. I'll have a look at it.

The recoil was not what I thought it would be. I have been doing a lot of .25-35 and low velocity .45-70 shooting lately and expected worse. I have been pushed around pretty badly by a less than 6 pound .44 Magnum!

 

[William Iorg]

It looks to me like Speer is also thinking along the lines of seating the bullet down hard on the powder. The Speer #13 Manual lists .45 Colt Contender/Ruger Blackhawk data for their 300 graun jacketed bullet.
This bullet is listed as seated .211" deep. The charge is 23.0 grains of Winchester 296 or 23.5 grains of Hodgdon 110. W296 giving 1193 fps and the H110 load giving 1156 fps from the 7.5" barrel. Both loads use the CCI Magnum primer. Speer says these loads were developed using copper crusher equipment and they are 25,000 CUP. The high expansion ration keeping the pressure down. The intersting thing about this load is the COAL of 1.640", the ball powder being for all practical purposes un-compressable.

 

[William Iorg]

TMC
I was either asleep or distracted when I typed that seating depth. I typed in the sectional density instead!

My chart says that Winchester 296, Hodgdon 110 and Accurate Arms No. 9 all share a density of .975 with water as the 1.0.

My Lyman 457122HP bullet is .930” long. With a coal of 1.60” I am seating this one .610” deep. A rough figure this morning gives a 16.7 gr water capacity. Now at the risk of my brain failing me two times in a row… I think this leaves me a17.12 gr powder capacity. I am giving some thought to this because I have always thought of Winchester 296 as being incompressible.

The NEI gascheck solid version of the Gould bullet is .928” long with the gas check attached. This bullet is seated .608” deep. Leaving about 16.8 gr of water in the case.

I need to hit these bullets with the Lee hardness tester. I was shooting for 18 BHN but may be a bit softer. They seem to not only expand well but also penetrate deeply into the backstop. I did not recover very many.

Tonight I’ll dig up the correct seating depth for the Speer bullet. I have a friend with a Marlin Cowboy Rifle in .45 Colt. If I can I’ll get together with him and we’ll compare the long and short barrels.

 

[William Iorg]

TMC

I like the mold. I have had no troubles with mine. It is not a fast mold but we really dont need a lot of hollow point cast bullets after we find the loads we like.

I am thinking this weekend I will play with Hodgdon 'Lil Gun and H110.

 

[William Iorg]

I am looking at some load data from Hodgdon for heavy weight bullets in the .45 Colt. For a 350 grain WLN lead gas check bullet Hodgdon suggests a starting load of 15.5 grains of Lil’Gun. A maximum load of 18.0 grains is listed at 29,700 CUP. I figure I will try three different strings at 16.0, 17.0 and 18.0 grains. There are two small complications. Hodgdon is using a .452” bullet diameter and a 1.680” COAL. I’ll seat a bullet in an empty case tonight and ensure that a 1.680” cartridge will cycle through the action. There is a significant difference between the weight forward design of the LBT bullets and the 457122 and NEI solid that I will be using – the advantage lies in the LBT design. Fortunately I can load at the bench – that will save pulling bullets if the visual pressure indicators look a little high.

 

[William Iorg]

These threads have a habit of getting away from me. I miss things. I was asked about pan lubing due to TMC’s comment. Here are a couple of pictures of a Lee pan lube kit. I have a bunch of these. I have lubed and sized thousands of 148-grain wad cutters over the years. Sure was nice when I could finally afford a Lyman 450 sizer lubricator. I still use the pans and kake cutters some. The picture shows some home made kake cutters made from cut off cartridge cases. I think these hand sizers would still be a slow but steady seller for Lee. It’s too bad they dropped them.

 

[William Iorg]

I am looking at the latest issue of Handloader this morning. Editor Dave Scoville has a very good little piece on .45 Colt chamber dimensions, lead alloy hardness and accuracy. Scovills thought fit right in with this discusson.
This is Handloader #237, Octorber 2005.

 

[William Iorg]

Shot the .45 Colt loads between rain showers. Hot and humid without a breath of air moving. All shot using the 16” Winchester Trapper.
Reshot the .20.0 grain Winchester 296 load. This one again with a COAL of 1.600” and R-P cases and Remington Large Pistol primers. All bullets sized to 457”
45712HP averaged 1421 fps with an E of 7 and SD of 4 fps. These ate one big hole in the paper about 2 ¼” in dia.

With the NEI solid I got 1438 fps and an E of 5 and SD of 2 fps. About the same size group at fifty yards. These both shot to point of aim with the open sight elevator on the second notch.


With 20.0 grains of Hodgdon 110 the 457122HP got 1428 fps with an E of 11 and SD of 6 fps. This appears to be a very good load with a groups size right at or just under 2.0”. Good shooting for me. This little rifle jumps around on the bags quite a bit.

The NEI solid bullet got 1415 fps with an E of 5 and SD of 2 fps. The group is right about the same with no flyers.

This Hodgdon 110 load looks like it should be looked at a little more closely. The ammunition lying on the bench was hot to the touch, as was the rifle. The sun had come out and it was getting hot fast. The primers have a good flat base with no machine marks in them but the firing pin indent is square and sharp.

Switching to 18.5 grains of Hodgdon Lil’ Gun the 457122HP got 1426 fps with an E of 14 and an SD of 7 fps. This string had one low velocity shot. Not certain why that was but it turned a 2.5” group into a 3.25” group.

The same load with the NEI solid averaged 1449 fps with an E of 4 and an SD of 2 fps. Group size was just less than 2.5”.

Lil’ Gun looks like a very good powder for heavy bullet loads.

Switching to IMR 4227 with the same components and COAL of 1.636" and light powder compression.
457122HP got 1410 fps with an E of 11 and SD of 6 fps. This group closer to 2.5”.

With the NEI solid I got 1406 fps with an E of 13 and SD of 6 fps. This group just under 2.5”.


Now that I have done a little chronographing I will try to get to the range and shoot the rest for groups from a good bench.