[William Iorg]

Is the first bullet on the left 457122 sized to .454"? It looks great!TMC

Yes, the seated bullet and the first in line is the Lyman 457122. This one sized to .457". I belled the full length sized case and seated the .457" bullet 1.595" with no problems. The cartridge chambered in the Winchester M-94AE Trapper with no difficulty. ( This rifle prefers the shorter length to the nominal length of 1.600") I have not tried the NEI solid bulet setting next to it in the Winchester yet. NEI lists this bullet as their #338 with a nominal weight of 355 grains. (320 grains without the gas check shank). While not an exact copy of the Gould bullet it is close. I have used them both in the Marlin Guide gun and they both shoot very well. I have killed several deer with the Gould bullet but only one with the NEI bullet.
The Lyman muzzle loader bullet is a great plinker. there is .45 Colt load data for it in the Lyman pistol book.

 

[John Kort]

MarlinCollector,

The group sizes are for 5 rounds on an average day. 3 of the 5 rounds are always between 1 1/2 to 2". Best 5 shot group to date was 1.67" @ 100.

My barrel has a restriction under the rear sight, one of these days I'm going to fire lap it. That will probably improve things somewhat. Also, if my eyes were younger, that would help too. A more accomplished shooter could also do better, no doubt.

One thing about the 457122/20/296/.45 Colt load, the accuracy holds up over longer distances. Some guns may shoot fine @ 100 but at 300 yards, the bullets are flying all over the place. Not so with this load. It works, even at 500 meters!

.45 Colt chambers run a bit larger on the average. I have 3 Ruger Blackhawks and the Marlin Cowboy and that is the case with them.

A friend of mine bought a Winchester '92 in .45 Colt a few years ago. He could not get it to shoot 250 gr. cast or jacketed bullets at all - groups of 3" + @ 50 yards. He is an accomplished Camp Perry competitor and trieda number of different load combinations with no luck.

One day we were at the range and I gave him some of the .457"457122/20/296/.45 Colt to try. They chambered fine and he shot a nice 1" group @ 50 yards with them. He was very happy to say the least.

For my Marlin, I can load the 457122's to about 1.71" long, crimpng behind the front driving band. They will work through the magazine fine at that length.

I have also loaded them to William Iorg's 1.60" length, crimping over the front driving band. Accuracy seems to be about the same either way.

William, that makes 2 Winchester's, 1 Marlin, and 3 .45 Colt Rugers that will chamber .45 Colt cartridges loaded with .457" bullets.

John

 

[William Iorg]

John,

"One thing about the 457122/20/296/.45 Colt load."

I intend to try your 296 load.


"William, that makes 2 Winchester's, 1 Marlin, and 3 .45 Colt Rugers that will chamber .45 Colt cartridges loaded with .457" bullets."

I think we have enough data there to say the 457122 will work in most all .45 Colts. I intend to try it in my wifes S&W Model 25 also - just to see if it will chamber and how long the cylinder is.

I also have the Lyman 300 grain 457191 mold. I dont have any cast up right now but I have shot some of them through the Winchester and they shot fine.

 

[John Kort]

William,

Hopefully it works well for you. At the 1.71" length I have pushed the 457122 bullet to almost 1,600 f.p.s. with no problems other than increased recoil. I just like the replication of the slower .45-70-330 b.p. load.

My Marlin is an earlier one and has the slower 1/38" twist. At 1,250 f.p.s. there is scuffing at the target. At 1,380 f.p.s. all is well. Interesting that it shoots good at extended distances with the bullet just above full stabilization velocity. I guess it proves that rotational velocity decays very slowly.

I also have the 457191 mold. It's an earlier Ideal one and the face of the front driving band is at a slight angle to help ease the bullet out of the crimp. Like yourself, I have found that it works well in the .45 Colt as does the 457192.

Other .45 molds I have are the RCBS 300 G.C. (320 grs in w.w.), 457192 (350 gr. .45-75 bullet), 457193 (400 gr..45-70 Marlin bullet), 457125, RCBS 400 G.C., Lee340 & 400 gr.

These bullet molds do use up a lot of lead in a hurry!

John

 

[MarlinCollector]

John/Slim,

I've gotta say... this is fascinating stuff.

John, how do you keep your 1600fps 457122 loads from fouling the bbl? What kind of alloy are you using? Heat treated wheelweights?

Now I'm wondering if the 26" twist of the M94 would be better than the faster 16" twist of the Marlin 1894.

TMC

 

[John Kort]

MarlinCollector,

I have fired, maybe only about 15 rounds with the higher powder charge but did not experience any leading that I could detect. I use w.w.+2% tin alloy not heat treated. I lube with the NRA formula of 50/50 Alox/Beeswax.

Perhaps a longer shooting session would lead to leading problems at the higher velocity. The cure for that would be either an upside down sized gas check or a .06" thick polyethylene wad.

I don't think the quicker twist would make much difference and besides with your name, would there be any place for a Winchester in your collection?

John

 

[William Iorg]

I dont see how these bullets can lead regardless of how soft they are. At .457" they will fill the throat. If gas is not able to get around them they will not lead.

I shoot pretty soft lead in all of my rifles. In my Guide Gun I will sometimes see light lead up toward the muzzle. This brushes out without difficulty.
Once I got the idea of filling the troat firmly in my head I have not suffered serious leading problems.

I too use 50 50 Alox exclusivly. I have tried some of the more exotic lubricants but have always returned to Alox. I dont have a prefference in brand and have used Lyman, Javalina and Lee with equal results.

 

[MarlinCollector]

John,

Actually, the Marlin 1894 has the quicker twist these days. The reason for me owning a Wincheeseter in .45 Colt is two-fold. I believe the M94 is stronger than the M1894 and the latter obviously has more action length so it should be (?) able to digest a wider variety of handloads. I want to replicate the 45-70-405 in a lever action carbine before driving pressures into 40K PSI (36K CUP) neighborhood. The only reason for me not buying a M94 is due to the fact I can perform an action job on the M1894 without breaking a sweat.

Slim,
I'm under the impression that if the shot's pressure curve doesn't suit the alloy, fouling will be deposited in the bbl regardless of fit. On the other hand, I'm not sure those who came up with this theory experimented with bullets that closely fit the CHAMBER while being .005" over bore diameter. Usually fouling near the muzzle indicates the lube has pooped out and friction is wiping metal off the bullet... but you probably know that already.

Regards,
TMC

 

[William Iorg]

"I'm under the impression that if the shot's pressure curve doesn't suit the alloy, fouling will be deposited in the bbl regardless of fit. "

That is almost right. If you go over to Charles Hamiltons Yahoo list: CB-L and look for posts by Norm Johnson you will learn a great deal about bullet fit. Norm shoots UNLUBED cast bullets in handguns and rifles.
Following Norms guidelines we found that we can shoot the LBT style NEI 180 grain bullet in the Winchester Model 94AE Trapper with no lube at full power. We have shot many of these and were forced to load them in front of witnesses at San Angelo Gun Club to prove it! In the Winchester, the NEI bullet does not leave a lead deposit in the 16" barrel. Norm gives a better description of the load technique and why it works than I can. I should point out that if the bullet does not fit it will lead from leade to muzzle!

 

[William Iorg]

While loading the 457122HP bullets I took a little look around at other heavy bullet data for the .45 Colt.
Frank Marshall in the Fouling Shot #52 described a philosophy of heavy for the caliber bullets he dubbed BOWM: Bench of Woods Marshall. These heavy for the caliber bullets are best described as providing a 10 to 15% weight increase and 30 to 50% increase in bore ride bearing surface.
Frank Marshall described his use of the Ideal 457191 300 grain bullet sized to .457 in the .45 Colt.
Two quotes from the article: A notable as the whump increase, was the improved accuracy of this longer bearing overall form.
I dont recommend this .45 Colt hot magnumizing and mention it only due to the notable accuracy with the semi-BOWM #457191 bullet.

Next, Forrest Asmus in Fouling Shot #64 (1985) describes his use of the Lyman 457191 300 grain bullet in his 7.5 .45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk. Asmus used a load of 22.0 grains of Winchester 296 with the CCI 350 Magnum primer. Starting off with a bullet sized .458 diameter, he had ignition problems due to his inability to place a heavy crimp on the bullet. Reducing his bullet diameter to .453 diameter (!) he was able to place a firm crimp on the bullet and improved his ignition.
Asmus estimated his velocity as around 1200 fps and described the recoil as impressive.

Serious discussion in the mainstream press about the use of heavy bullets in .45 Colt rifles appears to be limited to three articles.

The first is Ken Waters Pet Loads article from Handloader #149, Jan/Feb 1991. Using a Winchester Model 94 Trapper Waters described a serious effort to load the .45 Colt cartridge to higher performance levels in a rifle. Waters pushed the 240 grain bullets to 1480 fps, 250 grain bullets to 1450 fps, and 260 grain bullets to 1400 fps. Waters describes in detail his experiences with the Colt cartridge, heavy bullets and the Winchester rifle. It is an early bit of writing for what is now considered the routine use of heavy bullets at high pressure in the .45 Colt. We handloaders have learned quite a bit since 1991. I am over simplifying this and ignoring the pioneering efforts of many handgun metallic silhouette shooters dating back as far as the mid 1970s. But I am looking primarily in the mainstream press.

Second is Jay Turners article in Rifle #151, Jan/Feb 1994. Turner also used the Winchester Trapper in .45 Colt. He pushed the 300 grain Hornady XTP to 1575 fps, the 300 grain Speer flat nose to 1485 fps, the 300 grain LBT lead bullet to 1650 fps, the 300 grain Hornady hollow point to 1630 fps and the 340 grain Lee .457” dia. flat nose cast bullet to 1404 fps.

Both of these are very informative articles to those of us looking for high performance from the .45 Colt lever action rifle and worth the effort of looking up.

The third article is by Ross Seyfried from Handloader #205, June/July 2000. Seyfrieds article entitled “Turbosharging the .45 Colt is confined to the use of the 7.5 Ruger Bisley. Seyfried drove the 300 grain LBT cast bullets to 1330 fps and used LBT style bullets as heavy as 350 grains.

The above article is a serious beginning for anyone wanting to explore heavy bullets in the .45 Colt rifle. I am interested in hearing about any other articles containing specific load information on the use of heavy bullets in these rifles. For those using the .454 Rifles dont overlook 2guntommy and his 454 website. Beartooth forum member dztram frequents both boards.

I should be able to shoot my loads tomorrow morning.

 

[William Iorg]

Well, shot the Colt loads in the back yard this morning. All the Dove hunters out making noise - thought I would too.

Both bullets used 20.0 grains of Winchester 296 and Remington Lg Pistol primers.

The Lyman 457122 averaged 355.5 grains and sized to .457" and seated to 1.600". Lubed with Javalina Alox. All of these were loaded in Remington brass. A six shot string averaged 1411 fps from the 16" Winchester Trapper. The E was 12 and the SD 6 fps. At fifty yards these shot 3.5" lower than my 250 grain load. Group was just under three inches from my wobbly bench using open sights.

The NEI solid version of the Gould bullet averaged 368.8 grains lubed with Javalina Alox and fitted with Hornady gas checks. I mixed the brass on these. Used Starline, Remington, Winchester and CBC. Six of these averaged 1405 fps with an E of 10 and SD of 5 fps. Not a lot of difference in point of impact. just a little smaller groups perhaps.

I need to shoot these at the range from a good bench. There was no indication of leading from either bullet. With the Lyman bullet giving about 1557 fpe and the NEI bullet giving 1600 fpe there seems to plenty for deer hunting at least.

 

[MarlinCollector]

Thanks for the posts Slim.

Your stats sound promising. Why are you restricting yourself to 1.6" COL with the M94? I need to figure out what .45 Colt carbine to start looking for. The M94 has a longer action but a 26" twist; whereas, the M1894 Marlin has a shorter action but a 16" twist. Hanging out at the Cowboy shooting games that take place about an hour south of here isn't going to help 'cause those boys are shooting plinking loads.

What do you suppose the heaviest practical bullet weight is for the M94 and 1894? Please comment on currently available 45 rifle moulds you may find suitable (in addition to 457122). I don't think I want to mess with Lee's .45 rifle moulds because the grease grooves are too shallow. How is NEI doing now anyway? I made a call to NEI during the fist part of '04 and had no confidence in their ability after my conversation with the mould maker. What about RCBS and SAECO plain base 45 rifle moulds?

BTW, I signed up for that Cast Bullets Yahoo list a few days ago, started getting mass quantities of email that wasn't of interest to me so I took myself off the mailing list. My Yahoo account still exists though.

Regards,
TMC

 

[William Iorg]

First, about Yahoo groups. I suggest that you select Daily Digest. That will give you ne or two e-mails a day. If you dont want any select no-E-mail. This will allow you to search the past posts from the beginning.

If you want the heaviest bullet available go for the LBT 350 grain. Marshall has a wide selection of bullets for the .454 Casull, up to 405 grains I think. I would start with a selection of these to see what shot best. Then you could order a mold or just stay with Marshall's bullets.

NEI has the #337 350 grain bullet. There are several threads on the CB-L about NEI. The general opinion - last I remember is they now have their act together.

You can look at the LBT catalog on the front page of Leverguns.

I restricted myself to 1.600" COAL due to something I read once about Winchester 296 and Hodgdon 110 giving their best performance when the bullet is seated against the powder coloum.
Ross Seyfried said once that with a five shot revolver you could load all of the 296 you could get into the case and still seat the bullet against the powder and within the cylinders overall length. Not exactly a quote - and he probably would say I over simplified it!

I think 350 grains is the heaviest bullet that is useful in the .45 Colt but that is only a guess. Things are changing pretty fast. I need to work with Hodgdon 'Lil Gun before I use absolutes!
It is important to note that while I was able to exceed standard "high pressure" Colt loads in handguns by 350 to 400 fps, the custom 7.5" 5 shot handguns only give up 100 to 150 fps to the 16" rifle.

My thoughts at the moment are that Hodgdon 'Lil Gun or 295 and 110 are the powders of choice for heavy bullet loads. These powders should not require an excessive COAL. I'll have a look at it.

The recoil was not what I thought it would be. I have been doing a lot of .25-35 and low velocity .45-70 shooting lately and expected worse. I have been pushed around pretty badly by a less than 6 pound .44 Magnum!

 

[William Iorg]

It looks to me like Speer is also thinking along the lines of seating the bullet down hard on the powder. The Speer #13 Manual lists .45 Colt Contender/Ruger Blackhawk data for their 300 graun jacketed bullet.
This bullet is listed as seated .211" deep. The charge is 23.0 grains of Winchester 296 or 23.5 grains of Hodgdon 110. W296 giving 1193 fps and the H110 load giving 1156 fps from the 7.5" barrel. Both loads use the CCI Magnum primer. Speer says these loads were developed using copper crusher equipment and they are 25,000 CUP. The high expansion ration keeping the pressure down. The intersting thing about this load is the COAL of 1.640", the ball powder being for all practical purposes un-compressable.

 

[MarlinCollector]

Slim,

.211" is not very deep. I just slowly poured 25 grains of #9 into a Starline .45Colt case and still had a .450" neck. Did the same with a Starline .44Mag case but could only fit 22 grains with .450" of case remaining from the top of the powder charge to the mouth. I don't think #9 is much more dense than 296.

TMC

P.S. I just looked up the bulk densities of #9 and 296. They are .975 and .989 respectively so one can actually get more 296 in a cartridge case than #9 (about 1% more). H110 is actually less dense than either at .964 grams per cc. This is where I'm getting my data (the chart also displays grains/cc):

http://www.nfa.ca/cfj-archive/reloading/smokeless-powder-bulk-density-charts.html

 

[William Iorg]

TMC
I was either asleep or distracted when I typed that seating depth. I typed in the sectional density instead!

My chart says that Winchester 296, Hodgdon 110 and Accurate Arms No. 9 all share a density of .975 with water as the 1.0.

My Lyman 457122HP bullet is .930” long. With a coal of 1.60” I am seating this one .610” deep. A rough figure this morning gives a 16.7 gr water capacity. Now at the risk of my brain failing me two times in a row… I think this leaves me a17.12 gr powder capacity. I am giving some thought to this because I have always thought of Winchester 296 as being incompressible.

The NEI gascheck solid version of the Gould bullet is .928” long with the gas check attached. This bullet is seated .608” deep. Leaving about 16.8 gr of water in the case.

I need to hit these bullets with the Lee hardness tester. I was shooting for 18 BHN but may be a bit softer. They seem to not only expand well but also penetrate deeply into the backstop. I did not recover very many.

Tonight I’ll dig up the correct seating depth for the Speer bullet. I have a friend with a Marlin Cowboy Rifle in .45 Colt. If I can I’ll get together with him and we’ll compare the long and short barrels.

 

[MarlinCollector]

Slim,

I'm just checking in to see if you've posted any more info. I just purchased the last 457122 currently available from Midsouth even though I have nothing to shoot it from for now.

TMC

 

[William Iorg]

TMC

I like the mold. I have had no troubles with mine. It is not a fast mold but we really dont need a lot of hollow point cast bullets after we find the loads we like.

I am thinking this weekend I will play with Hodgdon 'Lil Gun and H110.

 

[William Iorg]

I am looking at some load data from Hodgdon for heavy weight bullets in the .45 Colt. For a 350 grain WLN lead gas check bullet Hodgdon suggests a starting load of 15.5 grains of Lil’Gun. A maximum load of 18.0 grains is listed at 29,700 CUP. I figure I will try three different strings at 16.0, 17.0 and 18.0 grains. There are two small complications. Hodgdon is using a .452” bullet diameter and a 1.680” COAL. I’ll seat a bullet in an empty case tonight and ensure that a 1.680” cartridge will cycle through the action. There is a significant difference between the weight forward design of the LBT bullets and the 457122 and NEI solid that I will be using – the advantage lies in the LBT design. Fortunately I can load at the bench – that will save pulling bullets if the visual pressure indicators look a little high.

 

[William Iorg]

These threads have a habit of getting away from me. I miss things. I was asked about pan lubing due to TMC’s comment. Here are a couple of pictures of a Lee pan lube kit. I have a bunch of these. I have lubed and sized thousands of 148-grain wad cutters over the years. Sure was nice when I could finally afford a Lyman 450 sizer lubricator. I still use the pans and kake cutters some. The picture shows some home made kake cutters made from cut off cartridge cases. I think these hand sizers would still be a slow but steady seller for Lee. It’s too bad they dropped them.