[William Iorg]

John,

At the COAL of 1.700” you got 19 fps higher velocity with your longer barrel. I guess the powder gasses have done all their work by then.

I picked up some CCI 350 Magnum primers. I wasn’t going to but thought I would try it again at both COAL’s just to answer the question.

The external ballistic generator in RCBS Load has the Lyman 457122HP in the data base. I ran it at 1440fps with a zero of 100 yards and a target at 125 yards.
The max height is 1.76” at 69 yards. The bullet is dead on at 15 and 100 yards so it is good for close encounters with the 125 yard zero.

The bullet is 2.90” low at 125 yards with 1204 fps remaing, about 1132 fpe.

The bullet is traveling 1315 fps at 60 yards with about 1350 fpe. This is not a bad deer hunting load for up close and fast work.

One last thing, Dave Scovill wrote a piece in Handloader #169, (May-June 1994), “Velocity vs. Barrel Length - .45 Colt.” This article is directed toward Cowboy shooters using the 1873 clones – the upper limit in velocity is 1200 fps. On page 5 Scovill discusses the impressive performance of the 300 grain Hornady XTP at 550 to 950 fps in these rifles. On page 57 Scovill gets to the subject of uniform bullet pull. He was using RCBS dies with a neck expander of .448” diameter and a moderate roll crimp. Dave goes on to say that if you are using a neck expander of .451” diameter you can expect velocities to drop as much as 50 fps (depending on barrel length – which is the subject of the article. Dave says that Alliant 2400 in particular was very sensitive to case neck tension. Dave says the heavier bullet pull provided by the .448” expander plug promotes an efficient powder burn. He also says a heavy roll crimp will not replace a snug fit between the case and bullet. Certainly my preliminary results with my small neck expander and short COAL support this thought. As you are aware the .457" dia. bullets fit pretty tight in the case (depending on the case - very tight) and regardless of how tight the crimp I have a prettye stiff bullet pull and a lot of inertia to overcome.

 

[John Kort]

William,

I've been away for the past several days. It's good to be back home.

You've been busy! Many thanks for all of the additional info!

"At the COAL of 1.700” you got 19 fps higher velocity with your longer barrel. I guess the powder gasses have done all their work by then." Sounds like that could be, although we are using a different lot of powder and a different chronograph. It would be interesting if you could try your loads in your friends' 24" cowboy to see what the difference would actually be using the same components.

"The bullet is traveling 1315 fps at 60 yards with about 1350 fpe. This is not a bad deer hunting load for up close and fast work." It willwork as well as the old .45-70 b.p. loading with the Gould bullet which, no doubt, accounted for many larger game animals as well.

Yes, the .457 diameter bullet fits nice and snuggly in the case, giving a heavier bullet pull.

I enjoy reading anything that Dave Scovill writes. Thank you for the reminder.

Well, have to get outside and do some yard work......

Thank You again,
John

 

[William Iorg]

John & TMC,
While looking for something else I found a short (900 word) Mike Venturino article on the 457122HP bullet in the July 1999 issue of Shooting Times. The article entitled: “The Best .45 Caliber BPCR Hunting Bullet” discusses Mike V’s observations in seeing approximately 40 deer taken by himself and others with the Gould bullet.
Mike’s emphasis is on black powder and he lists some load data for BPCR rifles with 30” barrel using FFg Goex and for a 32” barrel using Pyrodex Select. Mike also lists a load for the Winchester 1886 and A.A. XMP 5744 powder.
The interesting perspective of the article is the velocity range he is using, 1334 to 1423 fps. This makes Mikes comments on the performance of the Gould bullet appropriate to our discussions of using this bullet in .45 Colt rifles. Needless to say, Mike’s comments were all positive on the killing ability of the Gould bullet when used on both whitetail and mule deer.
Mike’s bullets were cast 1 part tin to 20 parts lead and weighed an average of 336 grains. Mine are a little softer and weigh about 20 grains more.
Just a tidbit, but interesting in that it gives real world perspective to our results with the .45 Colt rifles and the 457122HP.

 

[John Kort]

William,
Thank you for the added info. Pretty impressive performance.

So what do we call our cartridge...........
I would suggest .45-70-330x1.28
In other words, giving the performance of the .45 with 70 grs. of b.p. under a 330 gr. bullet in a cartridge case that is 1.28" long.

I recently loaded some 'Lil Gun using your load of 18.5 grs. with a 2 1/2 Rem primer under the Gould H.P. bullet for comparison purposes. Now I just need a good day to test them.

To be continued..........

John

 

[William Iorg]

.45-70-330x1.28 seems reasonable to me.

I have some H 110 loaded with CCI magnum primers. I am looking forward to seeing the difference.

This has turned out to be quite a distraction for me. Lots of reading about BP cartridges etc. Great fun.

 

[John Kort]

William,

Well I finally had the chance to get to the range this afternoon and shoot some .45 Colt ammunition in my 24" Marlin Cowboy rifle. I positioned the powder to the back of the case on the 296 & Lil' Gun loads ...........

I loaded some 457122's (1.70" o.a.l.) over your load of 18.5 grs. of Lil' Gun sparked by a Remington 2 1/2" primer.
average velocity was 1,529 f.p.s. (100+ f.p.s. faster in the 24" barrel with this load ...... but different powder lot, etc.)

Next were some Lee 340's over 20/296 o.a.l. 2.72"
(I ran out of 457122's .... time to plug in the pot!)
WLP primer - 1,402 f.p.s.
155 Fed . Mag primer - 1,410 f.p.s.
(I though that there would have been more difference than 8 f.p.s..)

Lastly, I tried a capacity load of RL7 (28 grs.) under a 320 gr. RCBS bullet with the 155 primer ...average velocity 1,416 f.p.s.

"This has turned out to be quite a distraction for me. Lots of reading about BP cartridges etc. Great fun."

Amen!

John

 

[William Iorg]

John, I'll plug your loads into my spread sheet and see how they stack up. It looks like the real advantage to the longer barrel is in sight radius. A good long sight radius is really helpful to iron sight shooting. After reading your post I got all jazzed up and went out to shoot the magnum primer (CCI 350) loads in the 16” Trapper this morning.

Starting off with the Lyman 457122HP bullet in R-P brass (no cannelure) seated over 20.0 grains of Winchester 296.
The loads seated to 1.6” gave us 1388 fps with an E of 32 and Sd of 14 fps for the first string. A second string gave us 1395 fps with an E of 6 and SD of 3 fps.

Lengthening the loads to 1.7” gave us 1369 fps with an E of 18 and SD of 7 fps.

Switching to the NEI solid version of the Gould bullet with the magnum primers I loaded these over 20.0 grains of Hodgdon 110 in the R-P case seated to 1.6”. This load gave us 1404 fps with an E of 7 and SD of 5 fps.

Lengthening this load to 1.7” gave us 1361 fps with an E of 34 and Sd of 15 fps.

For fun the same load in the Winchester case (with cannelure) at a COAL of 1.6” gave us 1399 fps with an E of 27 and SD of 13 fps.

All of these shot to approximately the same point of aim at fifty yards. I beat a pocket into the sandbag for the back of my hand and held the forend. With the butt on another bag and held against my Past pad the recoil was manageable. In the attached pictures I tried to show how the cartridge case form around the bullet as it is seated. This didn’t quite work out for the pictures. There must be a pretty stiff bullet pull. The NEI solid bullet is seated below the cannelure in the Winchester case. The gas check base does not seem to have been seriously affected by passing over it.

 

[MarlinCollector]

Slim,

What size groups at 50 yards are you shooting with that Trapper?

Question 2: Why are you guys stopping at 20 grains of 296? Isn't it possible to go beyond 1500 fps with 457122 in a .45 Colt carbine/rifle?

 

[William Iorg]

Slim,

"What size groups at 50 yards are you shooting with that Trapper?"

The majority of the shots (all but three out of the total) were inside a 4" vertical by 2.5" horizontal area. I planned to bring the aiming square home and measure it on Greg Mushials Target Tool on RCBS Load. The aim spot was pretty shot up. I drove off and forgot it due to all the talking... I was using a 6" wide by 8" tall black aiming square of construction paper. 6" wide is just about right for my eyes at fifty yards (my preffered chronograph distance). Using a six o'clock hold the blade front sight is just about the same width to my eyes.
By resting my right hand in the hollow on the front bag and grasping the forend I have a good steady hold. The rifle will sometimes get away from this hand as due to a previous injury (broken wrist) I dont have as good a grip with my right hand as I desire. With my left elbow on a small bag, the toe of the butt on another bag and pulling the butt into my strap-on shoulder pad I have a pretty solid hold.
There is a lot of muzzle rise in recoil with these heavy bullets and I could have a little better bench technique. I am using the issue rear sight and if the rifle were mine I would install a Marbles flat top folding rear sight for a better sight picture.
I believe better sights would help a lot but the big factor is managing the recoil for each shot the same way.

"Question 2: Why are you guys stopping at 20 grains of 296? Isn't it possible to go beyond 1500 fps with 457122 in a .45 Colt carbine/rifle?"

I have no idea how fast these big bullets can be pushed in the 16" barrel. To be truthful I was just following yours and John Kort's lead! The bullet weighs over 380 grains (with my soft lead) so I am assuming we are running 29,000 CUP or so. There is some published .45 Colt load data that has been pressure tested at over 30,000 CUP, so I am assuming we could go a little faster. Adding a grain or two of powder would increase the COAL (with the bullet seated hard on the powder column) and keep the base of the bullet above the cannalure on the Winchester brass - a good thing.
If DZTRAM is back on line and lurking he may be able to add a little here as he shoots the .454 Cassul in a Rossi. I think there are others on this Forum who are also members of the Yahoo Groups - 454 and 2guntommy. These two groups have a pretty active core group who are shooting warm .45 Colt and .454 Cassul in the short rifle. They may have comments on the potential of the Colt cartridge in the short rifle.

If I go any higher I will have to harden my bullets by either water quenching or oven heat treating. My bullets are so soft they problably are being pushed around a lot as they enter the rifling. This can cause them to slug up in the throat and raise pressure. I have experienced no leading with my loads so the throat is sealed for sure. While these loads are warm I have no reason to believe they are maximum.

Edit] MC, I ment to ask if you had seen my post on the other thread about heavy bullets in the 26" .30-30? We are getting some very good results with bullets up 220 grains in the Winchesters. I have some pictures to post that I think you will find interesting.]Edit

 

[William Iorg]

MC – Not certain why these heavy bullet .45 Colt loads hold such a fascination for me but they certainly do. It may be because the Trapper is over two pounds lighter than my Guide Gun!
I weighed five each unprimed cases. W-W cases weighed an average of 111.4 gr. R-P cases weighed an average of 104.6 gr. Midway cases weighed an average of 111.3 gr. I have loaded the 457122hP in Midway cases and there is no doubt they have less internal capacity. The .457” bullet bulging the case significantly. More on case capacity later.
I went back to Ken Waters Pet Loads article on the Winchester Trapper in Handloader # 149 (1/2-1991) to review. Waters weighed three brands of cases. W-W weighing 114 gr. R-P cases weighing 105 gr. Federal cases weighing 122 gr. So I think I have been dealing with about the same case capacity he had.
Once keyed to look for it by his article I too noticed a difference in feel while sizing and belling W-W cases. KW felt the difference in case neck tension in the W-W cases contributed to an occasional low velocity shot over his chronograph.
Waters did not use 300 grain bullets in his test of the Trapper. He did use the 250 grain Hornady JHP bullet ahead of 19.0 grains of H110. This load sparked by the Federal magnum pistol primer in the W-W case gave him 1374 fps.
The same bullet ahead of 21.0 gr of W296 gave him 1401 fps in the Federal case.
Ken Waters listed both of these loads as “Near Max.”

It would really be fun to have Ken Waters as a Forum Member so we could discuss this subject in-depth. Ken used commercial cast bullets sized to .4515”. He also used home cast bullets to .452”.
Both of these bullets are undersize for the throats of our rifles and it would be fun to discuss this with someone who has given the subject a great deal of thought and practical experimentation. All of our thinking on this article has to be placed in the context of time. Things have changed considerably since this test was published.
I have cast several Winchester chambers with Cerrosafe and they all match the chamber drawings in W. C. Davis NRA Handloading Book as closely as I can measure. With that thought in mind we know that KW knew the size of the .45 Colt chamber in the Trapper when he tested it. It would be fun to discuss this subject.

Like me, KW was wedded to the 1.60” COAL. I am not certain why Waters held rigidly to this COAL and I would be interested in his thinking on this. I use the 1.60” COAL because I want the bullet seated firmly on the powder column. I also believe my wife’s rifle shoots a little better (smaller groups, more uniform velocities) at this overall length.

Ken Waters liked the .45 Colt Trapper very much but he felt the Colt could not equal the .44 Magnum Trapper in velocity and power. Waters reasoning on this seemed to center on the cartridge case, not on rifle strength. .
In Handloader #188 Waters answered a question on the Colt Trapper and said that 1500 fps could be approached using 250 grain bullets (I have not discovered any KW writing on 300 grain or heavier bullets in the .45 Colt cartridge). Waters top load in the above article was a 250 grain jacketed bullet at 1440 fps. His fastest cast bullet loads in the Trapper were 1400 fps.

It is disappointing that Waters does not list his PRE measurements for the .45 Colt Trapper. I do not believe he restricted himself to .001” PRE during his Trapper tests.

Jay Turner wrote an updated test of the .45 Colt Trapper in Rifle #151, ½-1994. Things had changed a lot by then, probably due to the influence of silhouette shooters. Turner used several 300 grain bullets in his test of the Trapper.
Jay Turners results with the 300cgrain bullets are interesting and deserved to graphed.
300 gr Hornady XTP 24.0 gr H110 1532 fps.
300 gr Speer FN 24.0 gr H110 1476 fps.
300 gr LBT LFN 24.0 gr H110 1586 fps.
300 Hornady JHP 24.0 gr H110 1530 fps. (this is a .45-70 bullet)
300 Hornady JHP 26.0 gr H110 1592 fps. (this may be the warmest load I have discovered in mainstream printing)

It looks to me like the low velocity gain between 24.0 and 26.0 grains of H110 indicates Turner has reached a practical maximum at 24.0 grains.
During Turners tests Alliant Reloder 7 came up short velocity wise in the Trapper.

Jay Turner used another .45-70 bullet in the Trapper. He loaded the Lee 340 grain bullet ahead of 21.0 grains of H110 and reached 1353 fps with this load.

Looking at my accuracy results with these heavy bullets indicates I am shooting 3” groups at 50 yards with open sights – and not every group is that good. This taking some rough averages, I have gotten better with loads the more I shot them and I believe the heavy bullets may be more accurate than lighter bullet – recoil taken into account.
Jay Turner wrote of some accuracy problems with his Trapper. He felt the rifle could be “finicky” Turner did report some 1” groups at 100 yards using a low power scope – but not many. Turners average groups size with the 300 grain bullets at full power appears to have been 4” at 100 yards. Personally, I am impressed.

Anyway, lots to think about. If anyone knows of any other in-depth high performance load tests involving the Winchester M-94 Trapper or Marlin 1894 in .45 Colt I would like to here about them. I believe Dave Scovill may have the most collected knowledge on loading the .45 Colt to higher levels. Anyone having access to the on-line Load files at Handloader might want to look for heavy bullet .45 Colt data, I also believe there is a whole untapped group in the single shot shooting groups of TC, NEF Handi rifle and of course the “Rossi” Model 92 shooters who will have significant contributions to make. It will take a little searching on the various Forums and some sifting through past threads.

I added two pictures to give perspective to the different COAL

 

[MarlinCollector]

Slim,

Your involvement with the .45 Trapper is commendable. I wish I could add to the knowledge spewing forth here. Wish me luck, I'm going to try to add a .45 Colt carbine to my rack after Christmas. In the mean time, I need to make up my mind whether it be a Marlin or a Wincheeseter I do want to be able to shoot a 1.7+ inch cartridge and I want a packable little powerhouse as well as a fun-time plinker/pest destroyer.

Between home repairs, work and the Holidays I'm finding it difficult even attending to my favorite 30-30; however, I'm getting ready to put the last touches on my 205 grain (in WW metal) .30 PB mould that I'll have Mountain Molds cut for me. When I get back from the laser printer repair guy I'll take a look at the 30-30 thread. You're talking about the 30-30 vs. 30-30AI thread, right?

Regards and Merry Christmas,
MC

 

[William Iorg]

MC
It will be interesting to read of your 1.7" trials. You were sure correct about 1500 fps with the 300 grain bullets in the short barrels. It is being done.
I suggest Hodgdon Lil' Gun when you get started.
This is a very interesting topic to study.
I will post some bullet pictures on the 26" .30-30 thread in the morning.

 

[John Kort]

William,
Based on yours and my experiences, the magnum pistol primers hold no advantage over the standard primers at the 30,000 psi level. At a lower pressure level there probably would be a noticeable difference.

Interestingly, several years ago when I was wringing out some .44-40 loads using H4227 powder in my newly acquired '73 Winchester (1882), magnum primers gave more consistant results and a 100 f.p.s. advantage in 14,000 p.s.i. level loads (1,250 f.p.s.).

Earlier this year, a friend and I tested some higher velocity .44-40 loads in his '92 Winchester. We found that as the velocity / pressure increased, the magnum pistol primer velocity advantage gradually diminished. At 1,700 f.p.s. with a 200 gr. bullet, velocities were pretty much the same with either primer.

Sincerely,
John

 

[William Iorg]

John,
If you have Rifle No. 223, January-February issue, have you seen the review of the .454 Puma? The rifle is not of any real importance here but the performance information for the .454 cartridge in the 20” barrel is a good basis for comparison.
Using factory 300-grain ammunition Brian Pearce reported a little over 2,000 fps from Winchester and Hornady ammunition. This good for about 2,650 fpe. 300-grain handloads came up just short of 2,050 fps.
Interestingly Pearce used a Cast Performance 335 grain Wide Long Nose bullet loaded to 1.760” He reported the Puma cycled this round through its action without difficulty.
Brian Pearce fired 200 rounds of factory ammo in two days. Even with a pad he had to have been pushed around quite a bit. He reported recoil as “lively” but manageable, if the shooting sessions were limited to “reasonable numbers.”
I have fired 50 of the heavy bullets loads from the bench at one sitting and while I didn’t cry uncle, I was happy to take a break.
This article give us a reasonable benchmark to compare our heavy bullet .45 Colt loads, even if our bullets are a little heavier.

 

[William Iorg]

John,
Looking at Homer Powleys math via W. C. Davis NRA Handloading Manual.
This .45 Colt load using the 457122HP at my weight of 368 grains seated to a COAL of 1.600". The bullet is .914" long so it is seated about .599". The 16" barrel is actualy 14.4" from base of bullet to muzzle. This is about 30.3 grains of water to the base of the bullet.

Powly has trouble with small cartidge cases and more trouble when they are large bore.
The velocity estimate is 1264 fps at 51,086 psi (CUP).
In the last outing using magnum primers I got 1388 and 1404 fps as you will recall.
Even taking into account the formulas trouble with small, large bore cases this is a high pressure load. Special care should be taken to ensure it does not end up in "normal" .45 Colt handguns. Your idea of renaming the cartidge is a good one. MC's idea of using a COAL of 1.700" is also a good one as this, combined with the large diameter bullet, probaly will not allow the cartridge to chamber in a revolver cylinder.

 

[John Kort]

Slim,

Quote "Looking at Homer Powleys math via W. C. Davis NRA
Powly has trouble with small cartridge cases and more trouble when they are large bore. The velocity estimate is 1264 fps at 51,086 psi (CUP)."

As you said, " Powley has trouble with small cartridge cases" and this would be one example where the Powley estimated pressure is "way off" since Hodgdon shows the following 45 colt loads for Rugers, TC's......at a 1.68" cartridge length:

325 gr LFN PB
17.0 / Lil Gun / 20,700 CUP
21.0 / H110 /18,100 CUP

360 gr. WLN GC
18.0 / Lil Gun / 29,700 CUP
21.0 / H110 / 28,300 CUP

The seating depth of the bullets is not given, but 20.0 grs. of H110 under a 330 gr. Gould is definitely in the safe <30,000 CUP range.

Does your 457122 weigh 388 grs? That seems a bit heavy.

Happy New Year,
John

 

[William Iorg]

John, Just read through the full thread and that last post was the only place I listed the bullet as 388 grains - I corrected it. Just weighed seven 457122HP as cast and hand lubed = 354.2 grains average. The average of seven NEI solid bullets = 367.2 grains with gas check and no lube. Must have lost my mind.

I was just starting to feel uncomfortable about someone putting one of these heavy bullet loads in a S&W M-25 or a Colt clone. I feel better after looking at hodgdons data. I just tried to slip one of the dummies I have made up into my wifes Model 25, it will not chamber due to the large bullet diameter.

 

[WyrTwister]

Blackhawk44,

I am planning to pan lube the unsized bullets and size in two steps with Lee Push-Through dies (.457" and .454"). I'm assuming the groove diameter of the M94 will handle a .454" bullet. I'd almost wager the chamber is wide enough for a .454" bullet.

Can you be more specific about the experience necessary to keep the stud (or spud... I've seen it both ways) hot. I preheat my moulds on a hot plate, use a Rowell#2 ladle and my pot can consistently maintain over 800F. What else do I need? Will a coat of butane soot or mould release on the stud help?

TMC

Try the Lee liquid lube , lazy man's way to lube .

I use one of the " butane matches " that is used to light the burners on gass appliances , to smoke my molds .

If done carefully , you can also ise the spray that Midway sells . Apply several " coats " and reduce the ID of the mold , reducing the OD of the bullet .

This reduces the amount that you have to " size down " the bullet .

I shoot .45-70 & as an experiment , have sized down bullets 1 - 2 for .45 LC . Never fired any , though .

I have owned a S&W M25-5 for a few years & just bought a Puma .45 LC .

Shot it the other day w/ 230 RNL & 250 FPL ammo I had on hand ( loaded for the S&W ) .

If you are going to shoot a lot , I reccomend the Lee 6 cavity molds . Unfortunatly I have not found .45-70 molds lisred in 6 cavity .

God bless
Wyr


P. S. Be aware , all the pistol calaber lever guns I have seen are on the light side .

Feed them with heavy bullets at high velocity and they will be real THUMPERS !

I have a Marlin .45-70 . Trying to make a .45 LC ( in a light rifle ) into a mini - .45-70 will prove to have a down side , recoil .

My Marlin .44 Mag surprised me by having enough recoil to encourage me to install a slip on recoil pad .

 

[John Kort]

Thought I would bring this interesting thread up again since there have been recent interests on heavy bullets in the .45 Colt.

Wow! 4,165 views!

John

 

[William Iorg]

MC, did you get your Colt rifle?

John, this was quite a bit of fun and I learned quite a bit from it. I have studied heavy bullets and H-110 and W 296 loading data quite a bit from this and hope to use the information on the .327 federal.
After your thread on the .30-30 I finally bought a .30-30 Short Range cartridge for study. Mine has a deep cannalure. I would like to see one with case indents. I have been studying the Lyman case indenter. The short range cartridges for the .30-30 and .303 Savage is an interesting area of study.