Have you heard back from Savage?

 

Hi, No not yet, it was sent about a week ago.

 

Flat primers don't mean much. I've seen them with .38 Special loads, and nowhere near max.

Cratered primers are likely, but not guaranteed, the result of too much clearance around the firing pin, or possibly a weak mainspring.

Pierced primers could be high pressure, or a sharp / ill-shaped firing pin tip. I've seen that with factory .45 Colt loads, on a Ruger that had a burr on the firing pin tip.

Let us know what you hear.

 

Flat primers don't mean much. I've seen them with .38 Special loads, and nowhere near max.

Cratered primers are likely, but not guaranteed, the result of too much clearance around the firing pin, or possibly a weak mainspring.

Pierced primers could be high pressure, or a sharp / ill-shaped firing pin tip. I've seen that with factory .45 Colt loads, on a Ruger that had a burr on the firing pin tip.

Let us know what you hear.

I have seen this too. I tend to pick up a lot of brass when I go to the range and have seen flattened primers in all sorts of cases. Many of which one would not think as a high pressure cartridge. Very few people seem to reload where I live and I usually find the empty boxes that the case came in. Almost all of the time, it is what the local wally world sells, so I feel fairly certain they are once fired factory. I am thinking that many companies are making everything as cheaply as they possibly can. Maybe primer material is now thinner and not as strong as it once was?

 

Those primers don't look "cratered" to me. As MikeG spoke to, there are lots of reasons for "signs", none of them much more reliable than Ms. Cleo.

 

Looking closely at several fired FC case heads I can see the tattoo of the ejector (circular raised section). This is almost always due to excessive pressure extruding brass into the hole in the bolt face. Or it could be soft brass.

Instead of sending the rifle back, I’d send the ammunition back to Federal.

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Hi, the ammo was from Federal and Hornady and most was already spent..

 

I suspect the ammo as well. I know Hornady recalled some 6.5 kreadmire ammo for too high pressure in savage rifles.

RJ

 

Savage had a problem with short-chambered Creed rifles as well.

 

My .257 Weatherby (Vanguard from Howa) leaves a circular mark on some case heads from the ejector hole.... which concerned me till I took a close look at the bolt face and noticed a raised lip all the way around the hole, presumably from when it was drilled. Anyway, just another example of things appearing to be one thing, but sometimes something else. Haven't gotten around to smoothing that out (keep forgetting about it).

 

Hi, the ammo was from Federal and Hornady and most was already spent..

I was talking only about the Federal cases. The Hornady cases don’t show the ejector tattoo or flat primers. Send the unfired ammunition to Federal, or at least send them an e-mail with a photo of the lot number along with the photo of the fired case heads.

Tight headspace won’t cause excess pressure, if you can close the bolt without a hammer that should not be a problem. A short throat could increase pressures, but the Hornady cases don’t show the tattoo so were either lower pressured or had harder brass.

A ridge around the ejector hole would be seen on all cases not just on the FC brass, plus the brass is extruded into the bolt rather than the case being cut into by a ridge on the bolt. In the OP’s circumstance the Weatherby example is not the answer.


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I was talking only about the Federal cases. The Hornady cases don’t show the ejector tattoo or flat primers. Send the unfired ammunition to Federal, or at least send them an e-mail with a photo of the lot number along with the photo of the fired case heads.

Tight headspace won’t cause excess pressure, if you can close the bolt without a hammer that should not be a problem. A short throat could increase pressures, but the Hornady cases don’t show the tattoo so were either lower pressured or had harder brass.

A ridge around the ejector hole would be seen on all cases not just on the FC brass, plus the brass is extruded into the bolt rather than the case being cut into by a ridge on the bolt. In the OP’s circumstance the Weatherby example is not the answer.

I agree and wonder if Federal uses the same basic brass for the creed that is turned into .308?

Had an experience with Federal Gold Medal cases that I suspect was way too soft. After reloading the first time, primer pockets loosened to the point they were unusable


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Federal is well known for being too soft.

My examples are to show that "signs" have many causes, some of which have absolutely nothing to do with pressure. Interested in what Salvage reports, as far as the rifle is concerned.

 

Federal is well known for being too soft.

My examples are to show that "signs" have many causes, some of which have absolutely nothing to do with pressure. Interested in what Salvage reports, as far as the rifle is concerned.

I was going to say the same thing. Federal Brass is noted for being soft. I and many others have had MAJOR issued with federal cases failing.

 

Well looking at the photo's I don't see even one primer flattened by pressure. It does look like one might have a little gas leak around it though! Worst way to tell excessive pressure on the case is primer's!

 

To get the amazing advertised ballistics when the 6.5mm Creedmoor was introduced, it was advertised as a 60,000 psi capable case. However, after it was placed into production, Hornady listed it as 62,000 psi, then registered it with SAAMI as such. For this reason, many hand loaders have poor experiences reloading for it. Blown primers on the first shot at 62,000 psi are not uncommon. Early shooting articles listed the ammo as loaded to 58,000 psi, but later citings list it as 57,000 psi. Hornady reduced the loads in its factory ammo because of complaints it was often blowing primers. At some point it was changed to small rifle primer to stop the blowouts. Because of all this case life will be very short for hand loaders if they try to achieve factory velocities. 270 Winchester still rules. 6.5 -06 is also a great cartridge.

 

Blown primers on the first shot at 62,000 psi are not uncommon. Early shooting articles listed the ammo as loaded to 58,000 psi, but later citings list it as 57,000 psi. Hornady reduced the loads in its factory ammo because of complaints it was often blowing primers. At some point it was changed to small rifle primer to stop the blowouts. Because of all this case life will be very short for hand loaders if they try to achieve factory velocities.

Ehhhh..... That info is a bit off.
It is true there were some shenanigans surrounding the original loadings and lots of speculation about the pressures.
As with all things, the truth is somewhat different from the internet's infinite wisdom.

Whether or not the original pressures were or weren't something, I'm not sure of anymore; but I am sure of what was assumed.
The original factory ammo(maybe currently? I don't buy ammo) had a suggested load to match factory performance numbers. Unfortunately, the keyboard warriors of the world decided that meant that the factory ammo was loaded to that exact recipie; and that magically, powder lots were all identical. Neither of which is actually the case. It was well known that early on(and sadly recently as well) Salvage had short chamber issues on many rifles. Similarly the cool kids looked at a burning rate chart for divination, and began substantially over-loading things with various powders.
This lead to the internet wisdom of Hornady producing "inferior" brass.
Not to let a marketing opportunity slip by them, the usual suspects began offering SRP brass. Again the cool kids would tell you that not only does is magically increase ignition, but will lower pressures, align your chakra, and pull Venus into alignment with Mars. As proof, you simply need to swing by one of the fanboy forums, and read that some dude shot "MOA all day, while shooting another online dude's load". Couldn't possibly have been due to anything other than $9 brass and mystical pocket sizes.

Factory velocity claims can be achieved by the handloader, with several power combos. It doesn't lower brass life, doesn't take magic primer pockets or McLaren priced brass.

Cheers

 

Have no use for the 6.5 CM as the 6.5 Swede does everything needed in this category, albeit in a standard receiver. However, all the ups and downs on pressures and brass issues leaves me feeling sorta sorry for the poor old cartridge.

 

I am at a loss how your comment has anything to do with this discussion. I don't have a 6.5 Swede.

 

Mainer - evidently you haven't read all the posts. The thread is about 6.5 CM and the Savage chambering. The 6.5 CM and Swede 6.5 mm have close ballistic readings. If you don't own a Swede, get one and try it out.

 

Yes, I got that but the discussion is about pressure signs with my gun, not a 6.5 Swede that I don't own. What is the point in a discussion when the "answer" is well get rid of the gun. With that answer probably 95% of the discussions in this forum could be ended! My bullet puller doesn't work, answer: get a new one or my gun shoots to the right, answer: get a new one. etc etc etc.

 

Is the OP talking about factory ammo being to hot? If it is reloads, that's the handloader's fault. maybe you can match factory and maybe you can't but the rifle you have to work with is not the same one anyone else worked with. Read about this pressure stuff all the time and am amazed what some people actually attempt to do!

 

The OP clearly states the issue was with factory ammunition.


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Look at the brass showing the ejector mark under a microscope with oblique light to show surface texture. What I think you're seeing is the 'ironing' of tumbled brass. Shoot that brass again with a different orientation and the mark won't be there and the first one gone.
I don't see any high pressure in those primers.

 

Anyway...I got my rifle back today from Savage. The list of things they said they did was, reamed tight chamber, polished the chamber, checked head space (checked good), adjusted firing pin (huh?) and test fired. We'll see.

 

Primer cratering can be a firing pin that's too short and/or has a weak FP spring. I'd bet they stretched the throat about .050.

 

In new rifles---
"Pressure signs" of flattened primers can be caused by excess lube in the chamber.
"Pierced or leaking primers" can be caused by a weak firing pin spring or FP protrusion.
"Sticky extraction" can be caused by a dry chamber, rough chamber, soft brass and lack of lube on the extractor cam.
It sounds like Savage covered all the bases.