I don't know, but a quality store job on the mating surfaces in the FCG, makes a huge difference.

Cheers

 

FCG ? explain what that is.


Al

 

Fire Control Group
Essentially the important parts' mating surfaces (sear, disconnect, trigger).
My 870 had an abhorrent trigger when it was new. I found the batting surfaces were finished in early stone age. So I polished them with some 2,000 grit rouge, and the trigger pull became very nice.

The point isn't to change any angles, or file anything down; simply make what is, smoother.

If that seems out your skill level, then naturally don't do it.

Cheers

 

The trigger pull is determined by the SEAR spring in the Remington fire control, not the hammer spring.
ANY ALTERATION of the RCFC is likely to result in LESS safety. The actual 'safety' does NOT prevent the gun from firing. Only the sear engagement keeps it from firing. It CAN FIRE anytime it's loaded.

 

I am guessing the Woff hammer spring is not what I am wanting.

https://www.gunsprings.com/REMINGTON/870,%20878,%2011-48,%20SPT-48,%20SPT-58/cID2/mID108/dID216

I was thinking this was the same spring as the woff hammer spring.

Remington Shotguns 870, 11-87, 1100 & Remington Rifles 750, 7400, 7600 Trigger Spring Kit

Reduce your trigger pull from ~5.5 lbs to ~3.5 lbs with this drop-in Trigger Spring Kit for Remington 870, 11-87, 1100 shotguns and 750, 7400, 7600 rifles. Also compatible with H&R Pardner Pump. Made in the USA from premium A228 spring steel.

www.mcarbo.com

https://www.mcarbo.com/870-instructions.pdf

Al

 

Just understand please. THAT trigger mechanism does NOT have a 'total' safety. It does prevent YOU from pulling the trigger, but the hammer, firing pin and sear are not in any way restrained or blocked. There are five points of failure. Failure is rare but often deadly. The gun CAN fire without the trigger being pulled, WHILE ON or OFF SAFE. The only true safety is in how secure the trigger and sear connection are. Notice that is a hook connection, not a square ledge connection like most triggers. The 'hook' adds security but makes a terrible trigger pull. All post war, dual pinned Remington pumps and autos use the same trigger mechanism.
There are two US patents to repair the defect. One is mine and one is Remington's. Their's is better and cost nothing, but they still haven't done it. Twenty-three years and counting.

 

Which war?

I need to know if I should be askeerd of my 58 skeet grade going boom other than on purpose even though it never has.

RJ

 

The Model 58 was the first of the gas guns and DOES have the RCFC in it. I had a four gun skeet set of Model 58s at one time.

 

I better take the band saw to it then. CRAP!!

RJ

 

Just be aware of its shortcoming. Be MORE careful, if possible.

 

Nope, after hunting with it safely for 50 years I've already taken it to the bandsaw.

RJ

 

Jack is correct. If anyone doesn't believe him that the 'safety' on a Remington with the "common fire control system" (or whatever they call it) doesn't prevent the hammer from jumping the sear, just drop the trigger group out and try it. Put it on safe and cock the hammer, then use the end of a pencil or whatever, to push the sear away from the hammer. Hammer will go forward, every time, if the sear doesn't stay 'hooked' to the hammer. And it won't matter what position the 'safety' is in.

So yeah don't get carried away messing with the springs or mating surfaces.

I used to be pretty casual about putting a loaded shotgun in a case in a vehicle, but I darn sure won't anymore. Still hunt with both the 870 and 1100, no problem. Sit on the chair hunting doves, load it, and unload when done.

 

Well sure did turn this into a chop up ypur Remington guns for the anti gun people. Sure does cover a lot of them too, fine rifles like the 760, 7600, 742, 7400, 1100, 11 87's, 870's. a whole list of 22 rim fires and more.

Might just as well throw in the 700, 788 and model 7, plus the earely muzzle loaders and that series had the same trigger.

Sorry I brought it up. if there is a mod just delete the whole thread.


Al

 

Why hide mechanical reality from the shooting public? Just look at it!
BTW- take M788 off your list. That gun has a safe trigger. Add the 11-48. It was the first RCFC.
29 million of them is the last number I heard.

 

742s were pretty much garbage, from the get-go. They would batter themselves to death in a few hundred rounds, generally. So I wouldn't put them in the category of "fine rifles" by any means. Avoids problems dealing with the RCFC system I suppose

Remington .22 rimfires, as far as I know, did not use the same system. The 511 in my safe is far different than the 870 or 1100.

 

I can pull the trigger group from my Remington 22lr pump and stick it place of the one I took out of my Remington slugger 20ga.

I tried it to get a lighter trigger pull for the slugger.

Also there are a lot of people who have 742's and love them. My friend is one of those people.


Al

 

Trigger groups don't interchange between models because the feed mechanisms are different, but the trigger design and operation is identical: The sear is separate from the trigger and not under control of the safety. You'll see a big difference in the size and shape of the hammers because the bolts are different sizes, but the hammers operate exactly the same.

I've been taking guns apart since I was six years old (successful reassembly started later). The RCFC can literally be taken from the gun with a rusty nail. Punch out the two pins and LOOK at it. The 'safety' keeps the trigger from pulling, it does not keep the gun from firing.
Don't let the hammer fly forward when testing it. Sheet metal parts are fragile.
Cock the hammer and put the safety ON to reassemble.

 

Didn't realize the RCFC was in any .22s, thanks for the info. There are certainly plenty of Rem .22s (I'm much more familiar with the little bolt guns) that don't have it.

I think some forum members aren't entirely clear on what a 'design defect' is. Let's use a non-gun example, to eliminate brand loyalty, gun politics, etc.:

Say you had been one of the space shuttle astronauts up to 1985 or 1986. Were there design defects in the booster rocket o-rings? Of course not, all the previous missions came home safely! Who would have thought such a stupid thing?!?!?!?!? There was never a problem before, so therefore, no defect could exist.

But if you ask the family members of the last Challenger crew, if there were design defects that unfortunately became quite obvious on the day of launch; you may well get a different answer.

THAT's what a 'design defect' is. Part of the object, that can fail in an unexpected way, without warning. Unfortunately - Remington makes some otherwise useful products, with horrible trigger designs. I have both an 870 and 1100; have taken apart many of the same, and am always appalled by the sheer amount of filth that tends to accumulate in the trigger groups, when gun owners don't drop the trigger group from time to time and dump them out. Likewise, my handy little 6mm, got a Timney trigger as soon as I took the Walker trigger apart, and LOOKED at it, with all the loose parts flopping around in the housing.

 

Thanks Mike, Guns are strange in that when they 'fail' they shoot! Most things stop working when they 'fail', but guns work when they're not supposed to. That is also a failure. Of course the operator can have a failure which affects the gun, too. Operator failure is much more common.

I am in a rather unique position. I have to answer gun questions under oath. That's different from being a gunsmith or gun sales person or an internet poster. Under Federal Rules of Procedure, I can give an expert opinion, but it is probed for hours for defects under oath.
Mechanisms that are 'uncertain' in operation are subject to failure. The separate sear of the RCFC and the connector inside the Walker makes those mechanisms 'uncertain' in operation. Those internal parts can fail to stay in their place and cause the gun to fire, but show no evidence of having failed. Nothing is broken, bent or has remained dislocated.

Can these mechanisms cause the gun to fire without a trigger pull? Of course they can, there's nothing to stop it. That's unique in gun designs. Most are designed to 'fail safe' just like air brakes. If they fire, it's because either the trigger was pulled or something broke. A broken part could be a defect in materials. If either defect is present in a product, the manufacturer is obligated to 'Warn' the customer. We've all seen them.

Some guns are not as infallible as most shooters seem to believe and that's the misconception I'm trying to correct in the interest of gun safety and continuation of the sport. 28 million guns that can fire with the safety ON by being dropped is, to me, a significant safety hazard. Even if it only happens one time in the estimated BILLION shots a year those guns are shot, it's too many, because a better design, which Remington owns, disallows that single failure. Without the uncertainty, it cant' happen.
Why are the 'uncertainties' there? It's cheaper that way.

Remington Model 572 and 552 (pump and auto) have the RCFC. It works just like old fashioned fridge doors and car doors. A General Motors engineer invented it. (L.R. Crittendon)

 

There are many millions of guns out there in addition to Remingtons that only employ a trigger block safety. They are far more numerous than those which actually block the firing pin. Jumping off the deep end over it now is just silly.

 

Please look at those other trigger block safeties and you'll see the sear is part of the trigger. If the trigger is blocked, so is the sear. The Remington is different and you CAN see it. But you have to look for it. Dead people demand answers, they can't be ignored.

 

Before transitioning to O/U shotguns I was an 870 shooter, never used the safety on one.....ever, you leave the action open just far enough to see the plastic part of the shotshell, when you shoulder the gun it closes, trigger finger stays outside the trigger guard until the shot and the gun is never pointed towards anyone even when "empty". When unloading an 870 it's pointed in the air, index finger held down on the bolt release and the other hand pumps the action, no fingers inside the trigger guard. Gun is pointed straight up when dropping the hammer on an "empty" chamber.
Put a loaded gun in the vehicle? huh.
Like Jeff Cooper said, there's 4 gun safety rules that have to be broken before someone is shot, there are people that think that a mechanical gun safety gives them carte blanche to break all the other gun safety rules.
I've never seen it written anywhere where it says it's okay to point a loaded gun at someone as long as the safety is on.

 

Kevin, I agree, if a person's brain is engaged - there ought to be a lot fewer injuries / fatalities in this world; not just guns.

But, how many of us have leaned a shotgun against a tree to answer the call of nature? If it slips and falls over and discharges because it hit the ground with just enough force to let the hammer jump the sear, whose fault is that?

I would hazard a guess that most of the RCFC problems with the gun going off when it shouldn't, are from "bubba" trigger jobs, gunk in the housing, or just plain worn out.

Some people shouldn't own anything more complicated than a screwdriver, but there's no IQ or mechanical aptitude test to own a gun (or work on one, either).

Food for thought.

 

But, how many of us have leaned a shotgun against a tree to answer the call of nature? If it slips and falls over and discharges because it hit the ground with just enough force to let the hammer jump the sear, whose fault is that?

Friend of mine lost his leg from just that a couple years ago. 870

 

Lots of people are trained that way or they just do it because they always have-put the gun down without partially opening the action or lifting the bolt, it's second nature to me make the gun safe when not in direct control. The only hunting I do that requires a cartridge in the chamber or close to all the time is turkey and pheasant/quail hunting, I end opening the action alot and prefer hunting by myself for both. My wife has a hard time closing her 870 action quietly turkey hunting so she uses the safety instead of the partially open action method. I occasionally bounce the butt pad of her gun on the floor of my gun room with it cocked to make sure it stays that way. A 3 1/2 12 gauge turkey load at close range is probably the most lethal gun there is, no wonder turkey hunting is the most dangerous shooting sport there is.
My biggest fear is dropping a loaded gun out of a treestand and having it discharge upwards hitting one of us hence my rule of no cartridge in the chamber until there's a shot opportunity.
Wondering if those aftermarket triggers they make for 870's are safer than the oem triggers?
I've replaced all the triggers on my 700's with Mark-X triggers.

 

Mike G. You point is understood, but the information is not wholly correct on the Challenger. The o-rings in question were not designed to seal at temperatures as low as the day they launched the shuttle. The engineers tried to get them to scrub the launch waiting for warmer weather, but they would not. They knew there was a very low chance of failure, but that there was a chance.

JBelk. Even systems designed to fail safe are not totally failsafe. When you are dealing with any mechanical or electrical system, there is no such thing as 100% fail safe. Especially when you start throwing in wear, misuse and poor maintenance. That is why chemical plant have entire staffs going around changing out all of their safety valves and controls on a periodic basis. If they have failsafe system not function, they are evacuating a 10 mile radius.

I agree and understand the difference in the trigger and safety systems. Remington and some others have made the same decision that mission control did with the Challenger.

 

We still tease Hugo about feeding his dog cheap food and wanting to do him in, over that.