Good to keep in mind......

 

Out of close to one hundred handguns I've shot the most accurate one has the most recoil.

 

#4 is a hard one to get people to understand and put to practice

 

Number three is relative to the shooters experience and individual tolerance level. Sight picture and trigger control is the same for heavy boomers as it is for lighter ones. But if your attention is on the anticipation of blast and recoil instead of on sight picture and trigger control, then you are over gunned given your tolerance level and shooting experience. But accuracy does not decrease with recoil. Only your ability to deal effectively with recoil does. As Dirty Harry said, "A man has got to know his limits."

 

Mmmm... Number 2 is incorrect. With factory loads, As bullet weight increases, muzzle energy and velocity typically decrease. There are exceptions, but apples to apples, same brand etc. Bullet weight up, recoil down.

 

I don't necessarily agree.

Here's a list of loads vs. recoil. Notice the trend of bigger bullet = more recoil.
110@1300 4.1 ft-lb
125@1220 4.6 ft-lb
125@1450 7.2 ft-lb
140@1022 4.2 ft-lb
140@1323 7.9 ft-lb
158@1250 8.7 ft-lb

Handgun Recoil Table

 

Although I don't shoot factory ammunition, I also debate #2. I feel a considerable decrease in felt recoil when shooting a full house H110/296 load with a jacketed 158 gr..
Where as a 125 gr. jacketed with a full tilt H110/296 charge produces considerably more felt recoil.

#3 also doesn't always apply to me, and I'm a very small man, thin wrists, 115 lbs. soaking wet, and I can shoot a full tilt heavy recoiling gun / load, just as accurately as a light recoiling one.

SMOA

 

Submoa,
Did some experiments today with the 4" 686. First load was a healthy dose of H-110 and a Sierra 125jhp.(heavy recoil).
The second load used the same bullet pushed 100fps faster with 8gr less AA#7.(mild recoil).
As far as the above rule #2 goes, it would seem to me that the weight of the powder charge carries some importance when considering recoil .

 

Following this thread.......interesting. I tend to believe all 4 premises(I understand the glove does not fit everybody). Would appreciate any links to research, data available. Any info that would improve my shooting ability, and I see this thread in that vein.

Signed, Guy that likes things that go BANG!!

 

Good points, but like any generalization, it's a bit flawed.

One of the finest handgunners I know had a Casaul he used for handgun hunting in Africa. His handloads were staggering to the point where when he asked if I wanted to shoot it, I said "heck" no, I didn't want to dig the barrel out of my forehead. Regardless of the recoil, Mickey was exceptionally accurate with it.

As far as 4 goes, having the center of bore inline with the arm holding the pistol is part and parcel of using the Weaver instead of triangulating. I've been teaching some of the local LEO the Weaver and they love it once they master it.

The added weight I agree with, it's the main reason I run full length recoil spring rods in my 1911s. It helps a tiny bit.

 

G

The plane of the bore in relation to the hand is technically only part of the problem. This is an age old debate concerning grip angle in the Bullseye world. It comes down to the 1911 17.5° vs Slant grip angle of 24-30°. In the National Matches where two or three guns are used there was an advantage to having standardized grip angle. Since all the military and most top competitors were using 1911 midrange wadcutter 38's and 45's and the model 41 and 52's were already there it didn't take long for High Standard's advisors like Bill Blankenship, Joe Benner, Jimmy Clarke and others to convince them to offer the 45 grip angle in the new 106 series.

In light recoiling target guns there is a big muscular and skeletal advantage to slant grips positioning the forearm and wrist closer to the plane of the bore as is found with Rugers, early Colt Woodsman, early High Standards prior to 106 series and many Euro guns. Most of the time in this position the wrist will not normally allow the muzzle to dip more tha 5-7° as the muscles and bones of the wrist are close to being locked. With the 17.5° 1911 type grip angle the range of wrist motion vertically exceeds 20-25°. The catch is that though the slant grip has many advantages in light to moderate recoil target pistols since it creates a more rigid alignment of the forearm it would deliver serious impact and possible injury to the wrist in heavier recoiling guns since this position reduces the ability of hand and wrist to move or react to these abropt forces.

 

Dang garbler, that was good and it is also spot on. It is obvious you are an old 2700 Bullseye hand. Didn't know there were many of us left with all of these new shooting games now days.

 

Bob,

My 2700 days are over I shoot local indoor gallery and some regional 900 matches if I can. Once my eyes started to go and after several shoulder operations I could see the handwriting on the wall and passed on my Clark Colt midrange and Clark 45 to a younger better shooter who will make em winners again. Kept both my Star presses I used for 38 WC and 45 line guns cause you never know. Still have my High Standards one with a red dot but nothing center fire anymore that will shoot. Are you still competing ?

 

No sir. I'm up for my 74 th birthday soon and scheduled for cataract eye surgery next month. I haven't been able to see my sights for several years now. Even though married 50 years, I have no children, so like you, I committed a federal crime and gave away my three gun 2700 set still in the range box with the scope. Sure hope Obama never finds out about that. I almost cried to see that Smith 41 go. But like you, I kept the Dillon and the molds and pots and sizer/ luber and all the dies. Ya never know when I might need'em again.

I also kept the trophies, the photographs, the many friends I made doing that, and all the memories. It's about all an old fart can still manage to do. But ain't it amazing what a half century of competitive shooting can do? When I go to the range, I can still eat the target up at 25 yards even though my sights are fuzzy. Maybe the surgery will improve that and maybe not. Time will tell. But it was time to move on, so I have and that is that. As Dirty Harry said, A man has got to know his limitations.

 

Uste



Interesting we are running parallel courses. You've got six years on me, I've been married 37 and no kids. We both had-have good careers plenty of good dogs and decent health so we're lucky. It was hard for me to let my Bullseye guns go but I've got no family on my side and my wife's are either anti-gun or would just flip em for cash. Passing them on to the right person was the right thing to do. I explained and he understood that those guns are just in your care and custody and when your done they need to go to another shooter who will keep the sport going. I can still shoot at least expert level with my High Standards iron sights but it's tough if the indoor range lighting isn't good. I've got a nice Lou Lombardi barrel with a red dot I swap back and forth off my HS 102 Trophy ( set up by Bob Shea ) but that Pro Point red dot not only looks weird it alters the balance of the gun so really for me to score decently with it means some serious practice and maybe a stance adjustment.

 

Taylor,

Very thought-provoking post. Do you have a Footnote on the source of your "Rules of Thumb?"

I have shot many years since 1958 and have my personal observations of your "Rules."
#1 is a no brainer.
#2 Yes, IF velocity is also increased. I shoot a 172 grain .38 Special bullet ahead of 3.0 grains of 700X in PPC and there is no noticeable increase of recoil from the 3.5/700X load for the 150 swc bullet.
#3 My Best and most accurate load is a cast bullet in the .41 Magnum ahead of 19 grains of 2400. It is a deer load and negates rule 3.
#4 Another no brainer.

There are many "Rules of Thumb" for flintlock arms, caplocks and whatnot. While the rules are conversation starters, not all are true.

Webley

 

Garbler

Those of us who came up shooting iron sights of the various types are NEVER going to be happy with anything sticking up in the line of sight. As you say, it changes the whole dynamics of the gun and besides that, it's just ugly. And for those of us who could out shoot most rifle shooters with our handguns at 100 yards, people would see it and still not believe it. I used to get a big kick out of doing that. I started casting bullets and reloading in 1958 when I was in the 10th grade. My dad was a career Marine, had been through WWII in the Pacific as a rifleman, and was a handgun coach to the Midshipmen at Annapolis after the war. I have four brothers and we were all raised on a beef cattle ranch on the banks of Bayou Bernard like a bunch of Marine recruits. We could all shoot by the time we were 15 or 16. You know what I mean by "shoot." Unless you have been a competitive shooter at the expert class or above, most people do not know what "shoot" means. And when you stay in the Master class for as long as I did, you have to know how to "shoot."

Back when I was doing a lot of shooting, I was located in south Mississippi, so I had Jim Clark do all of my handgun work. As you may know, he was a real character and he built good guns. All of that was in another lifetime, and I DO MISS the characters we had back then. You couldn't go up to the Perry Matches without coming back with wild tales that nobody would believe, but they were all true. Those guys would pull the most outrageous stunts on each other and on you if you were not careful.

Now days characters are not PC. Everybody has to be plain vanilla My wife kicks me under the table every time we get with a group of people because I say what I think and it seems like no one is supposed to have an opinion about anything today because it may "offend" someone. After 50 years, you would think she would have learned how much I care about what other people think.

 

Aw COME ON B'wanna, you mean to tell me that for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction? Who would have thunk it? I was waiting for someone around here to explain some of the crap that has been posted here, but I am not holding my breath until they do and you shouldn't either.

 

It was about time b'wanna, thanks. Now for the rest of the story....

 

Ever watch 4-5 guys all tied with 40 out of 40 have a shoot off to determine the winner of a IHMSA match all shooting 44 mags at half size chickens at 200 meters.Anything over 2 MOA means your group at 200 is bigger then the half size chicken.They ain't shooting light loads.Accuracy and recoil.That is just in the revolver class.Then there are the rifle calibers in bolt action pistols.35 Remington used to be a favorite.As I got old I had to stop with the recoil as my wrist hurt for a week after a match of two guns at 40 rounds each.Now I use a Contender in 32/20.

 

Bobwills, I've already passed out many times holding my breath in this lifetime

I agree with what you said about shooting very well with an open sighted pistol or handgun. I don't have your experience but competed in handgun metallic silhouette for several years before scopes were allowed and with excellent teachers who taught how to squeeze a trigger and what I've seen some shooters do is quite amazing. I've personally put all six consecutive shots of a 44 magnum six inch SW model 29 inside a rifle target (not a dot but the larger round black target) about six inches in diameter from a hundred yards, standing position in single action mode and in reasonably quick succession. Still not much compared to what I've witnessed some excellent silhouette shooters do, like hitting a target the size of a playing card at 200 meters with open sights single shot pistols, time after time. I saw handgun hunters pull some superb shots as well from quite a distance. In capable hands a firearm can do amazing things. There are many shooters who are remarkable marksmen. I agree that some may not believe what they see as I've observed at many silhouette matches and there are those who do believe and become better by seeing. Complete novices who after a few months became good shots and kept on improving.

Practice and knowing your firearm are essential. Regular good practice following the fundamentals is priceless.

 

Funny how that class we likely all hated in school, Physics, keeps rearing it's ugly head. While the individual mileage may vary, it's still pretty consistent.

 

Yessir, that would be Newton's Third Law of Motion at work. But apparently some around here never learned that in school so in their mind you can have more velocity and less recoil.

Doncha just hate it when facts get involved in these discussions? Without facts, wonderful and unexplainable things can happen. The Internet is an amazing place and any day now I'm looking for the news that pigs can fly. I am sure that we will hear about it here first.

 

Yessir, that would be Newton's Third Law of Motion at work.

And second law as well... Heck, all 3 are involved.

If acceleration is the derivative of velocity, velocity is the anti-derivative of acceleration, hrrmmm Got a headache yet???

 

Agree- Too, there are subjective effects of recoil as well. Muzzle blast (noise, flash, jet effects etc) increases tend to make us 'feel' more recoil... YMMV

 

I disagree with both 2 and 3.

Recoil is a product of pressure. Reduced loads aside, as you increase bullet weight, typically the charge is reduced, and your actual pressure stays the same. Sure, if you unplug a light bullet, and drop a heavier bullet over the same charge, you'll get a big increase in pressure and recoil, but factory ammo is typically loaded near the pressure limits for a given caliber, which is the same regardless of bullet weight.

Recoil has nothing to do with accuracy. It may affect a shooter's ability to shoot accurately. If I lined up my pistols according to accuracy, the outcome would be the opposite of this claim with one exception.

 

I don't disagree with those four "rule of thumbs", I'm thinking one has been left off.
The handgun has to fit your hand. If it doesn't you will be fighting the gun every time
you fire it.

I see too many folks shooting handguns that are too small or too large for their hands, and
very few, if any, shoot them very well. Of course, there are exceptions, they are just rare.

 

I just use my Bersa Thunder .32 acp and my Kel Tec P-32 for carry/home. Both are reliable, accurate, and from 3 to 30 feet I can make head or chest shots. May not have the knock down power, but I can put 3 quick rounds in center mass, and I bet no one would like 3 rounds of .32 acp in their chest.