Sectional density "arguments" allow those who dislike recoil to shoot lighter recoiling rifles while claiming they can do "anything" a larger caliber can. One of the most consistent champions of the term is Chuck Hawks and he quite likely introduced more shooters to that term and facet of shooting than anyone else.

In my opinion (meager as it might be) the influx of good bullets have taken the edge off what was considered a requirement for hunters for many many years. Hence the term, heavy for caliber bullets. I've killed enough game with bullets of low SD to not use it as a serious consideration in my decisions on what loads I'll use. The SDs of such bullets as 180 & 200gr 35cal or 240 & 265gr .44(429) or even 300gr .45cal are not overly impressive, while their performance on game typically is quite impressive.

YMMV

 

The SDs of such bullets as 180 & 200gr 35cal or 240 & 265gr .44(429) or even 300gr .45cal are not overly impressive, while their performance on game typically is quite impressive.

I agree. Not that I shoot those bullets on game, but still, it makes sense. TnHunter, I'm guessing you are talking "handgun" bullets, possibly from rifles shooting typically handgun cartridges?

I think, (danger, danger, danger!!) that sectional density has a bit more to do with accuracy in a given cartridge/bullet combination than in its (the bullet's) "meat getting" properties. In the "new" bonded bullet race, this may be less of a concern than it was when we were using Corlokts and Silver Tips as our primary "meat getting" bullets.

As for the 6.5 Creedmoor as a "varmint round" I'm grinning a bit. Not laughing, just grinning. I think of "varmint rounds" as one that has the propensity to launch a frangible, light weight bullet as accurately as possible, leaving a path of death and destruction in it's wake. A 140 grain match bullet at 2700 fps does not quite conjure up these "visions of grandeur". Although hits will be virtually guaranteed, maybe not with the "authority" to send said rodent briefly skyward and maybe leave him/her, with guts dragging, to a painful and lingering death. My "aim" is to dispatch these "whaskowy wodents" as quickwy as possible (hahahahahaha . . . . Elmer Fudd . . . . .get it? No? sorry )

Having taken my hunting rifles out to shoot prairie dogs I've been witness to the gut dragging even with the sevumag at "long distances" (say 350 yards ). While I trust my chosen bullet to harvest an elk, it's a very poor varmint bullet as I see the bullets used in a 6.5 Creedmoor as being.

My thought and opinions.

RJ

 

I agree with TN Hunter that Sectional Density by itself isn't a very good indicator of terminal performance. However, when taken into consideration with other factors, it can be a consideration when choosing a hunting bullet.

For example, a lightly constructed varmint bullet with the same weight as a thicker jacketed bullet of the same diameter will have the same SD, but the varmint bullet will disintegrate quickly on impact while the heavier jacketed bullet may give much greater penetration.

On the other hand, a 7MM-08 bullet of 140 grain and a 6.5mm bullet of same weight and bullet style may be fired at the same velocity and have the same Kinetic Energy, but the 6.5 mm bullet will have a greater SD because it's a smaller diameter bullet. Will the 6.5 MM in a Creedmoor, 260, or Swede with greater SD perform any better than the 7mm-08 or .308 WIN?? Maybe theoretically, but if you put it in the right place it won't make a hill of beans difference, because either round is way over the minimum required to do the job.

Our family has lost a couple deer with our 308 and none from our 7mm-08, 260, or Creedmoor, but that's not because of the cartridge or the bullets we used. The 308 was made in 1958 and just isn't quite as accurate as the others. Plus we've been hunting with it a heck of a lot longer than the other rifles, and schtuff happens.

 

I had a very long detailed reply, you know how I can get... But thought this better.
I did an experiment because of a SD discussion had with Brian Litz, as I built my first Creedmoor. Painless(308) with 155gr SST's, Creedmoor with 140gr SST's. Close enough to the same weight, same normal max velocities, but carefully loaded to exactly the same velocities, Ergo same energy. Caliber and obviously SD differences only. Shooting at an old Ford 700's frame rails in the bone yard. The Creedmoor only, will easily slip through both the frame rails everytime.

As to the general point of "should I switch", I have a question.

Are we talking about bringing home a new wife, to tell the old wife she has been replaced and needs to leave? Or are we talking about being interested in trying a new cartridge?
If it's the wife one, you're on your own. If it's the cartridge, then any interesting cartridge to you should be tried. Doesn't matter what it does or doesn't officially do better than your current selection.

Try it for yourself, know it for yourself, have fun while finding out.

 

85, 90, 95gr Sierra, TNT's, Vmax bullets are likely what he's talking about for varminting, RJ.

I got a smoking deal of a pile of TNT's for one of my Creeds, but still. For anything more than a few coyotes, that'a a lot of powder and heat for what I call a "Varmint rifle". If varminting is called for, then the 204 comes out and we can start real long strings of fire.

 

85, 90, 95gr Sierra, TNT's, Vmax bullets are likely what he's talking about for varminting, RJ.

Ah, like this serious "varminter" would use IF he were to decide to "get" a Creedmoor

I got a smoking deal of a pile of TNT's for one of my Creeds, but still. For anything more than a few coyotes, that'a a lot of powder and heat for what I call a "Varmint rifle". If varminting is called for, then the 204 comes out and we can start real long strings of fire.

Were you able to get them to shoot itty bitty groups in your Creedmoor? Curious is all.

RJ

 

But yes, it's here to stay.

When the 260 REM came out. people "in the know" said it was a fine cartridge, but couldn't understand why it wasn't more popular.

Now the 6.5 Creedmoor is here, with virtual identical ballistics to the 260 REM, and people wonder why it IS so popular.

 

Because creedmoor sounds so sexy. .I have a swede and a 260 and happy with both.

 

yes, the 6.5cm is here to stay. along with the 260 rem and the 6.5x55. the 6.5cm has been going on for like 10 years, while the 30tc(made in 2007 also)is all but dead. the 6cm has a following but time will tell if if it does/not stay. i've had a 6.5cm for nine years. then in 2012 i've sold the 6.5cm savage11? or was it tc ventre? bolt action and i got a 6.5cm in a single shot(encore).

mostly i chose the 6.5cm because it was new and nobody had it. brass was sorta non-existent, so i used a 22-250 case. it werks, you only need a 6.5cm die set(full length resizing die and seater die) to do it. the 22-250 resized to 6.5cm is only short .1". the real reason i used 22-250 brass was that there is no need to trim, unlike the 243, 7-08 and 308.

now i'll say again, i am a hunter, not a shooter, i don't do competitive shooting. my tc encore in 6.5cm and a 120gr bt with a load of superformance will go 1/2" at 100 yards(5 shots). i have done a 120gr bt with a different load of superformance and it got .2 -.3" at 100 yards(5 shots), but it lacks the fps that a 1/2" does. next time i buy bullets, i'll buy 140gr sst and imr4350.

i don't care about sectional density. much like i don't care how many ft/lbs it does. what i care about is how the bullet does. i don't care if i use a 444 marlin to kill a grizzly or if i use 460 weatherby mag. they both do the the job and either one of them care less about ft/lbs and sd!!! this year i'll be using my 270 with 140gr sst and a 500 linebaugh(rifle) with 460gr lfn gc. i know both of them will kill whitetail/black bear.

 

Of course the Creedmoor is here to stay, and I think there are a few reasons for that. One _indicator_ (different from a reason) that it's here to stay is the wide range of ammunition manufacturers who put it on the shelves, and that range is increasing very rapidly. Another indicator is that at this point I believe all the major rifle makers chamber it. Winchester (which I don't distinguish from Browning, since they're both just labels used by FN, but I know many of you don't think of it that way) even chambers it in their single-shot rifle. This across-the-board availability of both rifles and ammo hasn't happened with many or any of the other new cartridges introduced within the past few decades.

As to reasons why it's popular, I think some highlights are:

1) Lots of new shooting-age (legal to buy & own firearms) people out there looking for a first rifle. These folks tend to have fewer of the prejudices built in to those of us who have had rifles for a long while.

2) Hornady has done a great job of supplying outstanding quality ammunition, and brass and other components, at very competitive prices.

3) Hornady and Ruger, and hopefully everyone else(?), have done an outstanding job of keeping chambers and specs under control. With LOTS of other rifle cartridge chamberings, you'll find a miserably wide range of chamber dimensions out there. Maybe all the newly-made rifles are better, maybe they aren't, but there are millions of older ones with huge and sloppy chambers. This means the Creedmoors out there tend very strongly to give you close to or at the rated speed on the Hornady boxes. It also means the rifles nearly always shoot well, and a very great number shoot outstandingly well.

4) The Creedmoor is an outstanding hunting cartridge. I'm not talking about theory here; no 'bench racing.' I'm talking about actual performance on game in the field.

5) The Creedmoor offers lower recoil WITHOUT compromising on-game performance. Again, not talking theory or 'bench racing.' I'm talking about real life, in-field performance.

EDIT: I changed my mind on the rest of the post; deleted.

 

With respect to 4 and 5, I see and hear of a lot of these "new shooters" that think they, with their 6.5 Creedmoor and it's fantastic ballistics, can take and make shots at elk well beyond 350 yards.

With all due respect and not questioning anyone's abilities that have posted so far, I don't think so Tim. Just because you can CLANK steel at 6,7,8,900 or a thousand yards? I've seen it tried with WAY more rifle than the 6.5 Creedmoor is capable of ballistically and, well, naw, I don't think so.

Trent, I looked on the Hornady website before I opened my "can-o-worms"

For an afternoon of relaxing shooting (that's say 1-2 rounds every 10 minutes) the .243 and 25-06 were expressly purchased to shoot 58 and 85 grain bullets (respectively) at un-GODLY velocities that heat a barrel too hot to touch in 5 or 6 rounds (in under say 3 minutes) on a 95-100 degree day. If they are "coming right for me" I have three (3) .223 bolt guns and the venerable .222 in 788 that are my back ups.

In my most recent experiment with 108 grain ELD Match bullets in the .243, this was done not to CLANK steel, but to try on prairie dogs out to 500 yards if I "like" the results at say 250 yards.

Oh and Trent? This and worse happens to prairie dogs when shot beyond 350 yards with 58 grain Vmax's from my .243.



They don't "run out of legs" but are sufficiently eviscerated that they don't move much.

This one:



Ran out of legs after being "turned inside out" at 300 plus by the 25-06.

Oh, in case you're wondering, that's how I get my exercise, walking out to take pictures of the "death and destruction".

RJ

 

I'm a big fan of using sectional density to compare bullets, for instance, I would argue that 6.5 120, 7mm 140 and a 165gr will all penetrate the same distance through an animal if the impact velocity and bullet constuction is the same. Essentially a 260, 7-08 and 308 make almost identical holes through a deer, thousandths of an inch in diameter don't mean much on game.
To take it a step farther compare a 6.5 140, 7mm 160 and 308 180{very close sd's}, here's where it gets interesting, two factors, you cannot match the speed of a 30 cal 180 using a 308win case to that of a 6.5 140gr. in a 308 size case{260} so both down range energy and trajectory falls short of the 260. The second part of that equation is recoil, a 308 will beat you to death shooting 180's whereas a 260 is mild, 7-08's fall somewhere in the middle.
The big bore guys like the 358win, you have to step up to the 225gr. bullet just to match the 6.5 120 bullet. It takes a 250gr. 358 to equal a 6.5 140, really can't shoot those in a 358win or I wouldn't want to. Never forget the first animal I killed with a custom 358 I had made, a pronghorn at 200yards with a 200gr.s win silvertip, broadside shot and it didn't exit, I was amazed and very disappointed, one of many times with that cartridge. That bullet has the same sectional density as a 130gr. 308 bullet, most folks would never use a bullet that light to hunt deer with because it might blow up, kinda like it did on that doe antelope I shot.
The answer to those problems is two-fold, use a bigger case, hence the big magnums and make the bullets with low sd's expand less, tougher jackets.
The third part of this is the bc's which favor the smaller calibers heavily.
Add the 243 to the mix, it's shortcoming is lack of bullets with high enough sd's but that seems to be changing, I've been shooting 115's for a couple of years in my 6x47rem and really like them.
I've had and taken game with all five of these 308win based cartridges, there's a reason those 6.5's have caught on and why there not going to go away, they do just about everything better with less recoil.
People get fixated on bullet weight, that relationship of length to diameter{sectional density} is more important IMO.


BTW RJ, nice pic's, you ever had a Swift?

 

We've both killed several duur, and an elk with a Creedmoor. I completely agree a new shooter will LEAP at any super ninja, hyper, uber, extreme, some other stupid acronymn something, that does something, and they can do what they can't.

But for someone wanting practical hunting results, the Creedmoor is perfectly at home on any game that your ability allows without having to shoot something that lives up to your name sake, RJ

 

But for someone wanting practical results, the Creedmoor is perfectly at home on any game that your ability allows without having to shoot something that lives up to your name sake, RJ

I just like the feel, big or small, the push, the shove, the jab not so much. It makes a guy feel alive

I have the sevumag, 30-06AI 300RUM and 35 Whelen for elk and the .243, 25-06 or 358 Win (M99f) for deer and speed goats (maybe)

I have a new rifle coming in January and I'm not sure what it will be yet. A bolt action Remington of some as of yet uknown caliber. Maybe a Sako if I have the copper.

RJ

 

Sitting here wondering. How many of you guy's shooting a 6.5 CM use it in a bolt action rifle? I haven't read where anyone is building a bolt action for the cartridge. It does seem though that everyone putting an AR type rifle together is using it. Wonder if that has much to do with popularity?

 

Ruger, Savage, Browning, Winchester,. Remington, Howa, Tikka, Kimber, and many others offer bolt actions in 6.5CM. Several custom builders do.

I see a lot more people at the range and on line using bolt guns with 6.5 CM. Personally, all my centerfire rifles are bolt actions except for a break action single shot 7mm-08.

I have no interest in AR type rifles.

 

Both of mine are Bolt actions.
I HAVE built a bunch of AR-types, but I really don't like those things. I'm a huge anti when it comes to Full length resizing, and the constant fiddling to clean them drives me nuts.

First one I built was a Marlin XL7, that started as a 25-06 in some posts here, then became a 6.5. Then I had enough Cabeezleez bucks to get a RAP for something like $50 cash outlay. That has also been in threads here, with my reviews and stock changes.

MZ5 started with a Salvage, which promtpted the un-dying "Why won't this copper come out" thread, and currently he has a M77 Predator from another couple of my posts.

 

i seen alot of bolt action rifles that are 6.5 creedmoor

ruger, tc, savage, howa, tikka, bergara, weatherby, sauer, winchester...to name a few.

 

Don Fischer, like Darkker said, I have a Ruger M77 Predator (bolt gun) in 6.5 Creedmoor. Sold the prior bolt Creed. I also have a Ruger No.1 in 6.5 Creedmoor which I haven't wrung out yet.

 

When Remington makes a 6.5 cm in the standard 700 bolt gun I will have one, if they don't make one in 2018 I'll probably have a 6x47 Lapua barrel 1-8" twist put on one of my short action 700's.

 

I think I've seen 3 AR10 types in the cartridge. Most all have been bolt actions. I've seen Howa, Kimber, Ruger, and savage rifles locally. They all seemed to shoot well when I looked at their targets out there.

 

When you consider the size of game the 6.5x55 is noted for in Europe, it should give you a hint as to the efficacy of Sectional Density.

 

Wow. A varmint round? Its a bigger bullet than my .257 Weatherby and Ill use that on deer all day long, sheesh! Roy Weatherby took a Cape Buffalo with the .257, i cant imagine the 6.5 being only a varmint round. And the .243? Thats 6mm? How many thousands of deer have been taken with those? Ballistics, sectional density, etc, etc, as a hunting round it boils down to one thing, shot placement. I know there are ethical limits, i wouldnt use a .22lr for deer, or even a .22 centerfire (because i have rifles specifically for that), but a 6.5mm? Id use it for sure

 

Just read an article in Fur Fish Game about the 6.5 Creedmoor. The author summed it up as a Long distance (600 yd) deer gun. He alo noted you would have to load a bunch of ammo to get even..

He also said he is waiting for a 25 Creedmoor and noted a 6mm Creedmoor is now available?? Im going to check.

Ill have to ask at the gun shop what they have and what they have sold in 6.5 Creedmoor and the others.

 

1) Not sure what he meant about "load a bunch to get even". You can buy factory 6.5 CM for under $20 per box on sale. When he wrote the article, he may have been thinking $40 per box.

2) Some are looking for a 25 Creedmoor, but with a 6 CM and a 6.5 CM already out there (basically a 243 WIN and 260 REM) I personally don;t have much interest in a 25. There's already quite an overlap of bullet weights n the two Creedmoors, with 6mm going from 55 to 110 grain, and the 6.5 going from 85 to 160 gr.

I've heard of custom rifle manufacturers saying that they do more 6.5 Creedmoors than any other cartridges the past few years. New rifle sales of 6.5 CM are limited by the number of rifles available to them. Some people want to get a CM, but end up getting other cartridges because they can;t wait for the CM. I had to shop quite awhile to find mine, and it was the last one in a shop with over 3000 rifles in inventory.

 

Anything the Creed can do my Ruger 77 .280 Remington can do BETTER. Just saying........... I won't be buying one anytime too soon.

 

I'm at a loss when I read these rants and raves on `6.5s' why the good ole 264 Win Mag is never brought up. Yea it burns a lot of powder and could be considered a barrel burner for the crowd that shoot the same gun a lot, but other than the Swede, might be credited with starting the 6.5 revolution in the states.

 

The 264 was ahead of it's time, I smoked the barrels on three of them, the last one started losing speed and accuracy at 500 rounds, I shoot to much to own one.
Barrel steel must be much better than it was 25 years ago or we would be hearing bad things about the 26 nosler.

 

No one will speak ill of the 26 Nosler for fear of invoking the wrath of the bullet God himself.

If I were to get a "26" caliber, it would be a 260 Remington, just to be at odds with 6.5 Creedmoor owners . No disrespect intended or meaning to offend ANYONE, I just can't see why so many are so "hotsy totsy" for it or the 6mm Creedmoor.

As I've said before, I don't think the 6.5 is a reliable elk rifle or "600 yard deer rifle" with any bullet. Steel doesn't move . . . . . . or have a 350+ (or 180+ for a deer) rack. Heck even a fat standing prairie dog can make me lose it



RJ

 

Like you, I have watched, with more than a little bemusement, the 6.5 Creedmore "frenzy" going on around us. Looking at the ballistics, as far as paper punching at long range goes, the cartridge does have a lot going for it. But when you really look at those ballistics, in real world terms, I'm just not all that impressed with the 6.5 Creedmore over say, the .260, or the .308, or actually any number of cartridges already one the market. To me, the biggest plus for the round is that it WILL fit into the standard AR15 mag well, and shoot quite well from that platform. If you are shooting a bolt action, the contributions that this cartridge can make over those other competitors fade pretty fast. I considered going to the cartridge until I really sat down and looked at what it will, and won't do. The answers are nothing that my tried and true .308s won't do better, or at least as well. Maybe not quite as frugally, but their likely isn't a nickle difference in a loaded round, one way or the other.
Sectional density, as you mentioned, is a pretty nice buzz word, until you look at the actual difference it makes in the field, on GAME ANIMALS. THIS is where ALL my focus is directed. If a gun or cartridge won't give me something more at the point of impact on game, then it's a waste of resources for me to invest my limited funds in said cartridge. And as much as I like the 6.5 C, it just isn't enough better than what I've got to go through all the trouble and expense of another cartridge and gun to science out.
I've shot everything from the 300 Win Mag, down to the .223 and 5.56. They all can be made to shoot pretty good, good enough to put meat on the hook, so why go to a whole new animal? Lot's of fun, sure, to take an new cartridge and figure out it's habits. But I think I'll just stick with what I have shot for years. It ain't broke, why fix it?

 

Juist read an article ion Fur Fish Game about the Creedmoor. It is good and supposed to be better at longer ranges than the 308, 260, and 7mm08.

My deer shots are less than 100 yds so Ill stick w/ my25/45 Sharps, 243 or 44 Mag(77/44).

 

Shoot, your .243 win should be good to 400 yards or so and is only going to have around 16-18" of drop depending on your bullet and load. The bullet is going to function 100% out to 400 yards, maybe a little further. You just have to put it where it needs to go.

For ethical hunting ranges, I don't think anyone can tell a difference between .308, 7mm-08, 6.5 creedmoor, .260 Rem, .308, etc...

I personaly still think "sectional density" is a salesman tool. It is a gimmick IMO. Proper bullet construction and shot placement will determine the effectiveness of a shot. A 6.5mm bullet that falls apart or expands too much is going to penetrate less than a .308 or .224 cal bullet that may have half the sectional density but stay together and not expand/expand very little.