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Weapons testing at Aberdeen Proving Ground WW2

5.9K views 28 replies 15 participants last post by  rojkoh  
#1 · (Edited by Moderator)
APG – Pictures of Women Testing New Machine Guns at the Aberdeen Proving Ground, 1942 | History in Fotos

Thought you guys might like to see what the weapons testing consisted of at Aberdeen Proving Ground.

I was a Small Arms and Ammunition Test Director here and worked in these same buildings while I was there. It was not uncommon for million round testing to be done from these positions on multiple weapon systems. This is building "350" and was the home of small arms testing up until 85 time frame.

The Anti Aircraft guns are Bofors and I proofed 75 of these for a foreign military sale right before I left there.

There are six windows directly behind the women (about 30 feet) sitting there firing and from my desk I could observe this area.

The long building directly to the women's left side was Indoor Range 1 (100 yards) and thirty feet past it was indoor range 2. They were considered small arms ranges and nothing over a 30 MM cannon could be fired in them.
 
#3 ·
When I was there I was told the employees would board a train by sitting on benches mounted a low flat car and ride the train into the Proving Ground and get off on the Main Front. On the Main Front, (the buildings in the above pictures are at the extreme right end of the Main Front looking down range and is about 600 yards wide and the women tested howitzers there pulled them up hub to hub down the main front and they fired six days a week 24 hours a day.

Women made up about 95% of the arsenal work forces in munitions manufacturing. I also worked at Picatinny Arsenal and met several older women in the area that worked there during the War. Picatinny was all large cal munitions production and rockets.
 
#8 · (Edited by Moderator)
Gettinwet, I was looking on ebay last night and found a photo of more women Gunners. Here is the link to the photos, sure hope she is there as if I had a Grandmother who did such I would sure want a pic of her "on the job" ! ! ! ! !

1942 Aberdeen MD Army Ordnance Dept Proving Ground Press Photo ner40483

Looking at the photo I think I see just the edge of the window I sat by, the one to the right is where Otto Hanel sat (we shared a two desk cubicle) and the next one is the secretary's office as there is a file cabinet by the wall that can be seen and there was no room for such a file in any of the cubicles where the Test Directors worked. There were two sections, Weapons and Ammo and this is Weapons section of the building. The Ammo section was in another wing just to right of main entrance door.

Sure hope you find her in the pic.

You can just see cotton in some of their ears which was later found to be almost useless. For a time there I was told the Safety Office considered cotton unsanitary and forbid its use. If I remember correctly muffs came out in 60s and I bought a set at Camp Perry and I was the first person in Spartanburg, SC to have a set. I think they were AO brand and were brown. I used them so much that the rivet holding the ear piece frame broke and I had to get another pair.

When I was there I got the foam EAR plugs(yellow cylinders) by the double hand full and had them in my glove box and when I drove into parking lot in the morning I got out a pair and put them in before I opened the door to get out. Kept them in all day and when I was on the range I used bigger muffs, then I found a set of the big ones the ground crews used aboard ships and I got my own and used them. It was impressed upon me at a early age the noise danger and I did all I could to reduce the damage but alas I was in a wreck in 2013 and when I came to I was stone deaf. It came back after about 20 minutes but two days later I could tell something bad was going on in right ear. ENT is satisifed that loss was from the wreck after I told him my background and the care I took to preserve it.
 
#14 ·
APG – Pictures of Women Testing New Machine Guns at the Aberdeen Proving Ground, 1942 | History in Fotos

Thought you guys might like to see what the weapons testing consisted of at Aberdeen Proving Ground.

I was a Small Arms and Ammunition Test Director here and worked in these same buildings while I was there. It was not uncommon for million round testing to be done from these positions on multiple weapon systems. This is building "350" and was the home of small arms testing up until 85 time frame.

The Anti Aircraft guns are Bofors and I proofed 40 of these for a foreign military sale right before I left there.

There are six windows directly behind the women (about 30 feet) sitting there firing and from my desk I could observe this area.

The long building directly to the women's left side was Indoor Range 1 (100 yards) and thirty feet past it was indoor range 2. They were considered small arms ranges and nothing over a 30 MM cannon could be fired in them.
OK, I"ll take the 1917, the 1919A4 (you know I worked on a lot of them and love them), and the M2.


We had a lot of fun with the M249 before the DoD "tests", and in 80 we had an AK74 which didn't impress me. You've seen some of the pictures.
 
#15 · (Edited by Moderator)
Yes we both evaluated the same rifle. I wrote for an hour and just lost what I was writing when it didn't take when I submitted it. I don't have time to do it over tonight as we leave for Williamsburg, Va in the AM and I will do it there as my laptop will be with me. I was going cover the AK 74 testing I did and the initial work on the ultra long range sniper analysis that was done by AMSAA and BRL.
 
#16 · (Edited)
Hump, we'll be on the range a lot this week.. just got access to the 762 chambered rifles again. Take your time.

PS we had all the SAW contenders... 249 was the best, didn't mean I liked it. Wrote a 5 page report on that one. Yes couldn't resist doing RAMBO with it. I did try that once with the 1919, my back didn't appreciate it! ;)

Guys in suits got treated to seeing the 249 against a 1919A4, a BAR and a NM M14. They really weren't happy trying to see any dirt strikes past 400 yards even with optics. The BAR and 1919 we used to 700 yards with the stock sights, NM was easier and shot out to 800 yards (limited by top of hill)


PS you'd laugh your read end off if you knew how we got the 74...
 
#21 · (Edited by Moderator)
OK I am in Virginia for a week now and am going to do this one off line as I lost a lot of typing before.


Aberdeen Proving Ground is a vast complex facility that obviously tests things most of us never think about. For instance one day I saw a Test Operation Procedure for Body Bags.


Then there is another organization there that I only had a couple dealings with but was fascinated at the scope of their work the more I learned what they did. It is called the Army Material Systems Analysis Activity. (AMSAA)


My first interaction with them was I got a phone call from a Col Buck Weaver, US Army Retd who worked for them and the conversation started off by saying who he was and that he had already spoke with my section Chief Bob Connolly (who also held a NRA Master High Power Card) and he had approved his contacting me directly to see if I would be willing to help AMSAA with a weapon the Army wanted an analysis on. Sorry I can’t fill you folks in on how they get their assignments but apparently it comes down from somewhere well above the Proving Ground mission.


On the phone he told me they had a Russian weapon, an AK-74 that somebody some place wanted to know how accurate it was compared to the M16A1 and the proposed enhancements incorporated into the M16A1E1 the USMC was pushing for adoption to enhance the range and lethality and durability of the M16A1. He said it was a AK-74 and that it was the only one in the country but I only learned recently how it all came to be here.


He invited me to come to their office which was about 150 yards away inside the security area which was referred to as “behind the fence” where the real action took place on the PG. I walked up and we got introduced and Buck was one of those kinds of people that I knew I was going to work well with. We sat down and he laid out what they had, what they were tasked to do and that he understood I had just completed the dispersion firings on the M16A1E1 days before and they were getting that data as we spoke.


The USMC was the mover and shaker on what was to become the M16A2 and they went directly to Colt and basically told them they wanted something better than a M16A1 and they funded the effort. I was surprised about that effort as I had just transferred in from the Army Small Cal Lab and the M16 guys in Product Engineering were not doing anything of that magnitude as there was no directive to do anything else. Their section was right across the aisle from us and all they did was M16A1 work and my area did everything else in the system that Product Engineering covered. I had all the rifles, shotguns and SMGs and Roscoe Picard had all the pistols, revolvers, and cleaning equipment.


Least ways that was what it was on paper but I guess it could be said I was the float man. Basically if the M16A1 guys got backed up I got detailed to help them. That was interesting in that I got hands on with catastrophic failure investigations as we had a M16A1 come in about every five months in pieces and that created a stir to determine if it was a material failure or ammo caused or operator induced.


One of the first things I was taught was no matter how much it had been designed/ tested/ evaluated when you give it to the troops all bets were off on how they were going to treat it and that caused breakages never contemplated. For instance barrels got bent on M16A1s (early versions had the 3 prong flash suppressors) and the story was the prong fingers got caught on foliage in Nam but in reality we learned the troops were using them by inserting the prongs onto steel binding straps on containers and twisting the rifle to break them. Also the C rats came with steel wire and they were used to break those. Thus the C rats and MREs were changed to nylon so the troops could use a knife to break them.



OK back to the AK-74 quest. The post paper had just done a big article on me being on the 1982 US Palma Team that went to Canada for the worldwide Palma competition that year and it was later explained by Weaver that AMSAA had seen the article and they put all the pieces together and figured out this was a golden opportunity to get a apples to apples comparison.


Weaver explained they were always seeing comparisons of this and that weapon in gun publications and they were not comparable because different folks conducted different tests with different ammunition at different ranges and the abilities of the personnel were unknown . He figured in this case they had the once in a lifetime opportunity to get good solid test data because with the variables normally associated were eliminated.

Thusly we had:
1. They were going to use the same control shooter that conducted the M16A1 and M16A1E1 comparisons to test the AK74 for dispersion from 100 to 800 meters.
2. The test would be conducted on the same range thusly the exact same elevation.
3. The same light conditions.
4. The same weather conditions
5. The same targets on the same frame.
6. The same bench position.
7. The same bench rest/sandbags.


I added one more thing which was I would get the same Gun Crew personnel that mounted and handled the targets so basically the only difference was rifle and ammo.


ROJKOH said he was not impressed with it and on first examination I would have to say I was not either.


The bad points as I remember:
What we thought was a flash suppressor turned out to be a muzzle brake as it has the worst flash signature I have seen for a shoulder fired weapon I have seen. I have a personal rifle that approaches it but the AK-74 has the prize. We went out and shot it in the dark and I was fully expecting a call on my radio that the boys in orbit had just reported a catastrophic event on the Proving Ground and were calling it in! ! !! To walk around with that thing at night in a combat situation would be tantamount to carrying a Coleman Double Mantle Gas Lantern on a night patrol ! ! !


The brake was loose and there was no way to tighten it. Flash signature from the muzzle brake is awesome. Puts out a very bright flash about the size of a large pumpkin.


It had about 9” of slack in the trigger and there is no warning it is about to sear off till it has and it takes concentrated effort to control it so that it goes off when you want it to and not the way it wants to.


The sights for all practical purposes are terrible as there is no protection to keep them from being contacted and their finish was worn off leaving gleaming shiny surfaces that in bright sunlight eliminates any semblance of usefulness.


I figured out right quick I had to blacken the sights and I fabricated a hood for the front and rear sight out of gun tape and that was the only way I could get a decent sight picture.


The sights are way too close together for the eye to accommodate and the users have to basically be in their teens/20s to be able to see them.


The rifle had a scope mount on it and I would have loved to have had an issue scope for it and been able to zero it at 800 meters just to really see what it was capable of.


Sighting it in was a real task and the sights are not designed to be adjusted by the soldier it is issued to. The Soviet way is an enlisted designated marksman shoots them and an officer observes the target and tells the marksman how much to move the sight and when he thinks it is close enough for gov’t work he informs the shooter who doesn’t see the target.



I shot three ten round strings at each meter line 100 thru 800. The ammo we used was iffy at best as what we had to select from was a couple 55 gal drums full of battlefield pick up consisting of loaded mags, bandoleers, strippers etc. No full cans thusly all we could do was select about 400 rounds with the same headstamp and hoping the same lot number.


I was impressed with the groups I fired at 800 meters as I was able to keep them in the 8 ring of our 1000 yard LR Target.
I would have loved to have had a Russian scope for that rifle and been able to zero it at 800 meters just to see how well it would really do.



Bottom line is a good shooter with a known range of 800 meters would most likely be able to obtain first shot hits about 75% of the time.
We got through with that test and Buck and his wife more or less adopted me and had me over to their place for Thanksgiving, and several more times while I was there and we got to be friends. I was able to learn a little bit more about what AMSAA did and they ran testing using troops from a Test Platoon which was just a run of the military unit. If you wanted to get an idea of what the troops might do you went down and got however many you wanted.

I did that on the M16A1E1 test and found out they did not know how to insert mags in ARs. Yep upside down and one did it upside down and backwards. I recommended oversize bottoms on M16 mags (like the AK mags) to stop such but it fell on deaf ears.




Buck told me they had done hit probability studies on full auto vs semi auto fire and he told me so much work had been done on that subject that if I ever saw a test showing full auto be more effective than semi auto it was a rigged test.


A month or so later Buck called me and said he had a assignment to evaluate the feasibility of obtaining a 1500 yard MOA sniper rifle. If anyone is interested in how that went I will do a write up on that.
 
#26 · (Edited)


ROJKOH said he was not impressed with it and on first examination I would have to say I was not either.


The bad points as I remember:
What we thought was a flash suppressor turned out to be a muzzle brake as it has the worst flash signature I have seen for a shoulder fired weapon I have seen. I have a personal rifle that approaches it but the AK-74 has the prize. We went out and shot it in the dark and I was fully expecting a call on my radio that the boys in orbit had just reported a catastrophic event on the Proving Ground and were calling it in! ! !! To walk around with that thing at night in a combat situation would be tantamount to carrying a Coleman Double Mantle Gas Lantern on a night patrol ! ! !


The brake was loose and there was no way to tighten it. Flash signature from the muzzle brake is awesome. Puts out a very bright flash about the size of a large pumpkin.


It had about 9” of slack in the trigger and there is no warning it is about to sear off till it has and it takes concentrated effort to control it so that it goes off when you want it to and not the way it wants to.


The sights for all practical purposes are terrible as there is no protection to keep them from being contacted and their finish was worn off leaving gleaming shiny surfaces that in bright sunlight eliminates any semblance of usefulness.


I figured out right quick I had to blacken the sights and I fabricated a hood for the front and rear sight out of gun tape and that was the only way I could get a decent sight picture.


The sights are way too close together for the eye to accommodate and the users have to basically be in their teens/20s to be able to see them.


The rifle had a scope mount on it and I would have loved to have had an issue scope for it and been able to zero it at 800 meters just to really see what it was capable of.


Sighting it in was a real task and the sights are not designed to be adjusted by the soldier it is issued to. The Soviet way is an enlisted designated marksman shoots them and an officer observes the target and tells the marksman how much to move the sight and when he thinks it is close enough for gov’t work he informs the shooter who doesn’t see the target.



I shot three ten round strings at each meter line 100 thru 800. The ammo we used was iffy at best as what we had to select from was a couple 55 gal drums full of battlefield pick up consisting of loaded mags, bandoleers, strippers etc. No full cans thusly all we could do was select about 400 rounds with the same headstamp and hoping the same lot number.


I was impressed with the groups I fired at 800 meters as I was able to keep them in the 8 ring of our 1000 yard LR Target.
I would have loved to have had a Russian scope for that rifle and been able to zero it at 800 meters just to see how well it would really do.



Bottom line is a good shooter with a known range of 800 meters would most likely be able to obtain first shot hits about 75% of the time.
We got through with that test and Buck and his wife more or less adopted me and had me over to their place for Thanksgiving, and several more times while I was there and we got to be friends. I was able to learn a little bit more about what AMSAA did and they ran testing using troops from a Test Platoon which was just a run of the military unit. If you wanted to get an idea of what the troops might do you went down and got however many you wanted.

I did that on the M16A1E1 test and found out they did not know how to insert mags in ARs. Yep upside down and one did it upside down and backwards. I recommended oversize bottoms on M16 mags (like the AK mags) to stop such but it fell on deaf ears.




Buck told me they had done hit probability studies on full auto vs semi auto fire and he told me so much work had been done on that subject that if I ever saw a test showing full auto be more effective than semi auto it was a rigged test.


A month or so later Buck called me and said he had a assignment to evaluate the feasibility of obtaining a 1500 yard MOA sniper rifle. If anyone is interested in how that went I will do a write up on that.


Ours was in better shape, muzzle brake was on solid and I think you know where those 74s came from. This was 80 or 81 IIRC.

Ammo was had was more reliable, but not that accurate. Trigger's were worse than the 47, and I only had it on a limited basis to actually shoot. Wasn't impressed. Never had a chance to work with it at any reasonable ranges. Nagant's still impress me, the 47 and 74s don't. The Israeli's loved the AK47s they could scrounge, since they had a lot of problems with their FALs and sand, ergo the Galil and the .223 version is still better than the M4s. Had the 21 out again today, my kind of rifle.

I did pass out a lot of the 74 ammo as a curiosity.
 
#24 ·
Aberdeen also tested armor plate welds. 45 years ago I worked for Bowen McLaughlin York (the Only Honest defense contractor I ever knew). They made military vehicles. To qualify welds an H-plate was made, 4 pieces of armor plate with welds shaped like an H.
They would get to know the guys at Aberdeen so they could select the gun with the greatest windage to be used for their H-plate firing test.
 
#25 · (Edited by Moderator)
JamesKelly, in the dealings I had with weapons and ammo contractors I only considered one small arms manufacturer to have the integrity
you describe. I had dealings with four munitions vendors and not one of them ever tried to give me any crap. The weapons contractors would say anything and I got into some bouts with some but others I just nodded as if I had believed everything they threw against the wall stuck.

I was asked by a INS Director to sit in on meetings with a weapon vendor who they thought could not be trusted to tell the truth and I sat there and wrote out questions and passed them to US Border Patrol Agents to ask and I thought the vendor QA guy was going to need a defibrillator. He had a look on his face and his speech was as if he was giving birth to a Georgia watermelon.

I let them talk to the point I knew they thought they had all their stuff sticking on the walls and I took up the questioning and it got so bad one looked at his watch and declared they were late for their plane and had to go.

When they left I went back to my office and wrote up a Memo of Information Understood, laid out everything said and took it to INS Director who said to send it. I had it in the post office registered return receipt before the guys that made the statements got to the airport.

I got the return receipt back but I never got a answer to that letter.
 
#28 ·
There was a pile of foreign stuff not only at the museum but another long building I was in. I saw pictures where they tested German tanks and shot them with everything we had. They hooked cables to them and pulled them across land mines.

Never saw it but was told there was a area down at Edgewood Arsenal (attached to Proving Ground) wherein foreign pill boxes etc were copied and fired on.

I was told right after the war there were lots of bombers sent there with full bomb loads and they would fire up the engines like they were flying and get back and shoot at them until they set off the bomb load and just repeated it over and over shooting it at different angles. APG reportedly had the third largest Air Force in the world as there was a tremendous plane storage there.

Down at Michaelsville there was bomb craters where the were dropped and then looked at the hole sizes. They told us not to go wandering off in the wooded area due to the large amount of live stuff there. One day I had to take a whiz and gently walked out in the area to the side of the 1500 yard range and there were thousands of 40MM grenades laying around. Occasionally fires would get started in the impact area and the FD didn't do anything till fires got to the road and tried to stop it there as they knew getting off the paved roads would likely lose the engine and or crew from what was laying around.

Ray Steele from the Secret Service came up on weekend and we were shooting standing practice at Romney Creek Range and he touched off a round and got a secondary explosion about 500 past the target. I had one as well when practicing by myself.

Otto Hanel who I shared a cubicle with translated all the German Ordnance material captured for three years on his first tour when they found out he spoke fluent German. Otto was a real card, he grew up in Augusta, Ga. His father died and mother took him back to Germany in 34 and he was in Hitler Youth till 38, then get took a big envelope he had to Berlin US Embassy and they looked at it and told him he was American and he said, "Good get me some papers to get the **** out of this place quick." He got here and joined USMC in 39. So we had a card carry Hitler Youth type with a Georgia accent. I really enjoyed listening to his history which was immense. Otto was processed out of Marines in 46 and within months joined the Army and rotated in and out of APG for 25 years, retired and stayed there doing the same thing (Test Director) till he retired and I recommended him to Ruger and he was hired and stayed there traveling with Bill Ruger for several years and retired again and died almost immediately as he had heart trouble. One more fine individual.

I am told all the test reports were photographed and put on computers and are in storage at a place I don't know the name of now. It used to be Cameron Station but I was told it was closed and their material sent to another place.
 
#29 ·
There was a pile of foreign stuff not only at the museum but another long building I was in. I saw pictures where they tested German tanks and shot them with everything we had. They hooked cables to them and pulled them across land mines.
Bunch of that stuff has been salvaged and pieced back together for Museum tanks in Europe, the Jack LIttlefield Panther in NorCal was also put back into working order finding bits and pieces across the globe. .

We had a bunch of laughs when we got our AK 74 in 80 IIRC the year right..