[bud340]

Yes, I once shot a 2 year old cow bison, that definately wanted to get close and very personal. She busted one horn off in the process, and "Dummy" stood in the corell about 10 ft. in front of her, and made a one shot kill in the head with a Winchester 32-20.

I sold the 32-20 and now have a 45/70 for a utility rifle.

What is it they say? "Older and wiser"

 

[quigleysharps]

Since this was done in the real world on real animals it's validity can not be denied

Tis true...but how many hide hunters had the chance to work a herd from 30 yards?

 

[MikeG]

Tis true...but how many hide hunters had the chance to work a herd from 30 yards?

Think possibly you miss the point.... work the ballistics charts of the old long-range buffalo rifles, and see what the impact velocity may be at 300, 400, 500 yards when starting out with a lead bullet & black powder.... they also used large caliber, (.45 - .50) heavy bullets.

Low-velocity handgun rounds give us the same performance at close range..... if the rifles could do in 60 million buffalo at long range, the handgun should do fine at short range. And it does.

No, I wouldn't try to hit a buffalo 300 yards away with the handgun, it has a different purpose.

 

[DEVERS]

A close friend of the family is a Conservation Officer in MN. He was called out to a scene where a 1500 lb bison was loose and charging people.

No way was that thing going to settle down. So, it had to be put down.

Said officer had a 20rd mag on his Springfield M1A/M14. [308Win]

The beast began charging him. Took 13 rds of 308 (168gr JSP) to finally drop the monster.

2 things to remember:
1) animals on "the jazz" take alot more effort to put down than when standing stupid in the forest.
2) normally, 1000 fp-lbs of KE would be enough to drop any animal in NA... in this case, it took over 37K

Lastly, the CO was cleaning out his underwear afterwards... he only had 2 more round in his mag. (only put in 15 of the 20 so the mag spring had more power to it and less chance of jamming, a trick he learnd from a Korean war vet)

 

[Jim Rau]

Most do not understand the science here. Energy is what you ALWAYS hear when descussing killing power, but momentum is what gets the bullet where it need to be. A 50 gr bullet with 800+ flbs will have very little momentum and thus very little penatration. When computing energy you use the square of the velocity, thus the high velocity rounds show a high 'energy' level, thus the deception!!!
In this case the 800+ flbs was enough becasue the momentum was there. They use the 1000 flbs because under most circumstances with bullets of normal hunting type and size this would apply.

 

[MikeG]

A close friend of the family is a Conservation Officer in MN. He was called out to a scene where a 1500 lb bison was loose and charging people.

No way was that thing going to settle down. So, it had to be put down.

Said officer had a 20rd mag on his Springfield M1A/M14. [308Win]

The beast began charging him. Took 13 rds of 308 (168gr JSP) to finally drop the monster.

2 things to remember:
1) animals on "the jazz" take alot more effort to put down than when standing stupid in the forest.
2) normally, 1000 fp-lbs of KE would be enough to drop any animal in NA... in this case, it took over 37K

Lastly, the CO was cleaning out his underwear afterwards... he only had 2 more round in his mag. (only put in 15 of the 20 so the mag spring had more power to it and less chance of jamming, a trick he learnd from a Korean war vet)

Agreed... there was a huge difference in how my bison reacted, vs. "Stupid" that took two rounds from the .450 NE.

I would theorize that the biggest problem with shooting a mad bison with a .308 is have soft points, vs. something that would penetrate. The bones on that critter were pretty solid! Even a rib bone on the bison was thicker than a shoulder bone on a typical whitetail.

Lacking adequate penetration, the only sure stopper on a charging animal is through the nose or the forehead, whichever angle gets to the brain.

 

[kdub]

If the charging animal has it's head lowered, suppose the best shot would be for the neck/shoulder junction. Spine shots usually put any animal's lights out. Have heard of bullets bouncing/deflecting off head shots on thick boned skulls, such as bears, buffalo, etc.

Personally, hope to never have to make the decision!

 

[Jim Rau]

It is not just the 'bounce off' factor. I have two friends who have been charged by bears and had to stop them. One is an old hunter who was up here before statehood. He showed me both skulls. A bears head is LARGE and the brain is SMALL. The first bear he fired for the head (brain) with his 338 WM and the bullet struck just under the eye and went thru the 'meat' along side the skull but did hit the shoulder joint which was just luck. The second bear he hit the inside of the right eye socket and did get a barin shot. The other guy, a young hunter, with a 338 also, aimed for the shoulder and broke it.
If you were armed with a shot gun the prevailing mentality is now to use #4,5 or 6 shot for the first round or two. You have the option of 'peppering' a bear or if it is a close charge you point at the nose and fire. At close range (30 feet-10 yards or closer) the concentrated pattern of shot will blind the bear and the blood in the nostrals will kill it's ability to smell which should give the person time to step out of the path and use slugs to finish the job. I have no first hand knowlage of this, but I have read a couple of account from Canada where it did work well. It sounds like a common sense method to me! Any comments? (as if I would have to ask)

 

[mstockton]

Whenever we used to have to put one of our cattle "out to pasture", dad used just a .38 special...one well placed shot to the head did the trick, but our cattle weren't that deadly, and not too often were they out to get you. Heck, a butcher we had come out to the ranch one time used a .22! I don't know if it killed the animal, but stunned them long enough for him to string them up and cut the throat. Whatever it is, I think people just want big boom for big things charging them. I don't blame them, but when they go around saying "can't do", its a bit silly. Great thread.


Martin

 

[fat chance]

Not just thick scull on bear. The forehead were you need to hit for a brain shot is sloped to almost the perfect angle to deflect the slug. I read of a guy that shot a charging bear with a shotgun 2 shot goose load. Started at like 30 yards but only got two shots off with a semi auto. The bear got him down and bit the back of his head. He actualy heard his scull crush, or so he thought. He lived and when the bear was killed it turned out he hit the jaw. When the bear bit down on his head it broke the jaw and the pain from that is what discouraged the bear from finishing the job (they think). I think it would take a lot more guts than I have to stand and aim when being charged. Guess I would rather be lucky than good. Justin

 

[loraksus]

Here's the critter, and instrument of it's destruction:

As a side note, I've taken a couple "trophy pictures" for some folks areound here and have found that if the camera is as low to the ground as possible it makes a nicer picture (well, the animal looks bigger
I also tend to clean up any blood, although it went well with your story.

 

[Ganjiro]

Obviously you didn't see "Dances with Wolves" where the Kevin Costner charactor drops several bison using his trusty 1860 Henry Rifle in 44 Rimfire, I mean this cartridge killed them "Hammer of Thor" dead one shot instant drop dead! I gotta get me one of them Henrys for my next bison hunt.

 

[jwp475]

A close friend of the family is a Conservation Officer in MN. He was called out to a scene where a 1500 lb bison was loose and charging people.

No way was that thing going to settle down. So, it had to be put down.

Said officer had a 20rd mag on his Springfield M1A/M14. [308Win]

The beast began charging him. Took 13 rds of 308 (168gr JSP) to finally drop the monster.

2 things to remember:
1) animals on "the jazz" take alot more effort to put down than when standing stupid in the forest.
2) normally, 1000 fp-lbs of KE would be enough to drop any animal in NA... in this case, it took over 37K

Lastly, the CO was cleaning out his underwear afterwards... he only had 2 more round in his mag. (only put in 15 of the 20 so the mag spring had more power to it and less chance of jamming, a trick he learnd from a Korean war vet)

Give this an open minded read and find out what wound ballistics experts think of foot pounds of energy

http://www.chuckhawks.com/terminal_performance_muzzleloading.htm

 

[fornra]

The 168gr soft points were most likely match bullets and were a poor choice for any game stopping seniereo. Not intended to argue with the intent of this post, as your point is well taken!

 

[Cobra44]

Mike;
Sounds like you have some fine eating ahead of you. I love it when I read the "rags" that say you need a "super duper manum blooper" to kill. Guess they just sit in a office and look at playboy, eh? 1000 pounds of energy is alot. I have seen alot of deer fall to a lowly 22 long rifle when I was a kid. How much muzzle energy does it have? I hunt with mostly my 44 magnum redhawk or my freedom arms 454, Both are overkill for most conditions. I just like the guns and can hit with them. I don't pay much attention to articles in mags when they start talking about how much power is needed to kill an animal. Once you put a hole clean through, How much more do you need? I see you have that nice wide meplat on that bullet. I have lbt molds for my .430 and .452. Glad I bought them. As stated above- Mass tends to stay in motion- VERY TRUE. Besides animals can't read the rags anyway. They just know they are dead when smacked with a well designed, well placed bullet. God Bless Steve

I will have to agree with you that a lowlly 22 can and has killed a lot of deer, when I was a youngman my Dad knew a guy, which he didn't think to much of, was a poacher and Dad knew for a fact that this guy had killed at least 50 deer with a 22 short, he bragged it ain't the gun it is the shot that counts.

 

[Cobra44]

WARNING: many published gunwriters have clearly explained why anything less that 1,000 ft-lbs of kinetic energy won't kill a whitetail deer.

That I why I wisely selected a bison (american buffalo) to try a load generating sub-part ballistic performance on, rather than risk wounding a tough 90 lb. whitetail. Also, deer are out of season here ....

Shot a bison this weekend with a handgun generating all of 882 ft-lbs of muzzle energy..... a 440 grain bullet, rated at 950 fps muzzle velocity. You can check the Beartooth kinetic energy calculater and verify these figures, but it comes to exactly 882 ft-lbs

The bison..... (which I don't have any idea how big it was, but big enough that the small tractor we picked it up with, had trouble keeping the back tires on the ground) took one shot through the lungs at about 30 or so yards.

Ran a short ways (like another 30 yards or so), I caught up with it, and put another shot within inches of the first. Bison spun around blowing blood out it's nose at the second shot.... clearly it already had some health problems from the first shot ... ..... and tipped over dead.

One more shot through the neck while it was on the ground, cause bullets are cheap, and ER visits are not

Here's a picture of the lungs, next to a cartridge.....

Oh and for the believers in kinetic energy, I might tell the tale of 'Stupid,' (can't print the other names we were using for him) a buffalo/Brahma cross which caused much havoc at the ranch... till one of the hunters put a 500 grain bullet from a .450 Nitro Express into it (5,133 ft-lbs of KE).

This made Stupid want to fight, and another 5,133 ft-lbs of energy were summed to end that altercation..... with 3 more 500gr. solids in my .458 Win Mag, waiting on deck.

So .... lesson learned..... 882 lbs. of KE are inadequate to stop a bison.... you need at least 10,266 lbs. of KE to stop a bison.

By the way... the quarters of a mature bison, pretty well fill up the bed of a Ford Ranger. So don't go shooting 90 lb. whitetails, with inadequate calibers, OK??????

The reason they put things like that in those mag. articles is for the benifit of the ignorant and non skilled for the sole purpose of trying to insure that if a non skilled shooter (notice I did not use the term Hunter) shoots an animal while hunting there is a good chance there was enough energy ti dispatch the poor animal from a poorly placed shot. It has nothing to do, as you well know with the ability of lesser guns with shots well placed in killing an animal, A good hunter has a lot in common with a Sniper One Shot One Kill, in the case of your kill the buf was dead he just didn't know it yet.

 

[Cobra44]

Mike;
Sounds like you have some fine eating ahead of you. I love it when I read the "rags" that say you need a "super duper manum blooper" to kill. Guess they just sit in a office and look at playboy, eh? 1000 pounds of energy is alot. I have seen alot of deer fall to a lowly 22 long rifle when I was a kid. How much muzzle energy does it have? I hunt with mostly my 44 magnum redhawk or my freedom arms 454, Both are overkill for most conditions. I just like the guns and can hit with them. I don't pay much attention to articles in mags when they start talking about how much power is needed to kill an animal. Once you put a hole clean through, How much more do you need? I see you have that nice wide meplat on that bullet. I have lbt molds for my .430 and .452. Glad I bought them. As stated above- Mass tends to stay in motion- VERY TRUE. Besides animals can't read the rags anyway. They just know they are dead when smacked with a well designed, well placed bullet. God Bless Steve

In my home town back in the late 40's early 50's a man was arrested tried and convicted for poaching over 50 deer, his weapon of choice a 22 short single shot rifle, he said it ain't the gun it was the shot that counted and the shooter that could do it that mattered beside a 22 don't make a lot of noise.

 

[fatman13]

In my home town back in the late 40's early 50's a man was arrested tried and convicted for poaching over 50 deer, his weapon of choice a 22 short single shot rifle, he said it ain't the gun it was the shot that counted and the shooter that could do it that mattered beside a 22 don't make a lot of noise.

my father was depression kid. he used a stevens single shot 22 short for everything . years ago a game warden stop him draging out a 130 lbs buck. the game warden being the same age gave him a break on using the 22 short but, told him next time he wouldn't. pops from then on carried a empty winchester 30-30 into and out of the woods but, hunted with the stevens he kept in his back pack. i watched him take a lot of deer with that round and also watched him pass up twice as many. shot placement was always at the base of the ear. range was always less than 100 feet. claimed to have taken a few hogs and cows when the farmer wasn't looking. lol!

 

[Darkker]

I can't believe all the people in here that don't think 1,000Ft/Lbs of energy will kill a deer. Maybe they should come over, I'll cook some elk burgers, and show them the 1,000Ft/Lbs of energy that my Martin Bow generates.... wait a minute.........

So as far as Godzilla-esque all-consuming Buffalo. My neighbor Ronnie W. Had 10 from his heard get loose last summer and go on a Australian Walkabout. He finally got tired of hearding them around the badlands here, so it was hunting season!! Ronnie Took his 300 Weatherby, I had my 308. He used more rounds, had more hits, and less kills than I.

Moral: Next time Godzilla comes to your town, Don't shoot him in the A**, unless you want to piss him off. If you do shoot him in the Arse, don't claim you did a head-shot and it took 30-rounds, 5 goats, and a small monkey to kill it.

 

[Bouhunter]

I guess that the mule deer that I shot with a 357 mag didn't know they weren't supposed to die either. Those were only generating about 500 FPE. I goes to show that if you put a larger chunk of lead into the right spot it will do the job.

Congrats on a fine buffer.