[TreeFiter]

I've always been told that you need about 1000 ft lb of energy at impact to reliably kill a deer. I've seen a few references as low as 800 ft lb. A 223 with a 64gr bullet stays above 800 out to about 180 yards, and above 1000 out to about 100 yards. With modern bullets that optimize mass retention and expansion, its not unreasonable to use the right 223 to take deer at relatively short ranges (less than 200 yards).

 

[Mommicked]

Poacher's Choice

I used to hunt with 2 poachers. I guess back then I was too. Anyway...
One of them was the most successful deer hunters I've ever met. He was a very phenomenal shooter, and had a mind for finding deer, especially big bucks. The area had laid back hunting laws, little law enforcement, and a large deer population. The season was also very long, and he was unemployed every year during deer season (his job's down time coincided with deer season almost precisely).
His choice weapon was a bolt action Model 70 (I think it was some sort of youth model) in .223. His preferred ammo was cheap 55 grain Remington Core Lokts. With this combo, he would routinely shoot in the neighborhood of upwards of 30 deer a year, and probably some years double that. He wasn't ever going to be mistaken for a sportsman, but the point I'm making is the combination will never be called into question by me. A .223 in the vitals will do the job, especially on smallish deer and especially at modest range. Many of his shots were under 50 yards. Frequently he shot large bucks. He preferred the neck shot. He rarely lost (or tracked) deer using this combo.

I don't think an M4 carbine with it's wimpy barrel, using a red dot sight and FMJ bullets is anything resembling a good deer rifle. But an accurate AR, using softpoints with a decent scope can be made to do the job. I'd like to see the shots kept to under 150 yards and with good shot placement.

These are my opinions and personal observations. I don't poach anymore, nor do I hang out with this fellow anymore. But he is a very skillful hunter and marksman (I've seen him shoot much farther than his common 50 yard shot, and he can SHOOT) and I have seen this class of cartridge perform far better than it would seem on paper.

 

[cobra351s]

I think,know this will step on toes,that NO deer hunter should hunt with anything smaller than a .243/6mm, I know that a .223 will kill a deer and so will a 22LR BUT WHY RISK losing a deer.COME ON & Man Up, Get something with more thump and make a BIGGER In & Exit wound. You can keep your AR,there is many bigger bore uppers out there from .243WSSM to .50. Myself I have a .450 Bushmaster, Just started building a 300 Blackout and sending off a 24" bull barrel in 223 to be redone in 223/6mm (my 6mm rule). Anyways thats what I think.

 

[Model 52]

I've always been told that you need about 1000 ft lb of energy at impact to reliably kill a deer. I've seen a few references as low as 800 ft lb. A 223 with a 64gr bullet stays above 800 out to about 180 yards, and above 1000 out to about 100 yards. With modern bullets that optimize mass retention and expansion, its not unreasonable to use the right 223 to take deer at relatively short ranges (less than 200 yards).

Several states require .23 caliber or large but South Dakota is the only state that requires 1000 ft pounds of energy at the muzzle in a factory loading for a cartridge to be legal for use on deer and antelope.

But even then it's just a number and there is a lot more to it than that.

A .45 Colt for example, with a 250 gr lead round nose flat point bullet at maybe 1250 fps in a carbine or rifle will only generate around 830 ft pounds at the muzzle and only 620 ft pounds or so at 100 yards (compared to about 2885 fps and about 1000 ft pounds for the .223) but it, and cartridges like it, have been hitting deer like the hammer of God for decades.

Energy is one thing, but momentum is another. You get energy by taking the mass times the square of the velocity, while momentum is just mass times velocity. The latter equation gives a heavy bullet a considerable advantage, and many folks would agree that higher momentum numbers are a better indictor of killing power than energy.

At 100 yards, the 250 gr .45 Colt load mentioned above has 160% more momentum than the .223 load mentioned above. In addition, it'll cut a .452 diameter hole even if it has zero expansion. A .224 diameter bullet will need to expand to 202% of it's original diameter to match that.

 

[JASmith]

The .223 / 5.56 with the proper bullets is reasonable for the smaller deer usually found in southern part of the States from Southern California through to Georgia and Florida. The key is shot placement, shot placement, bullet design, and bullet weight. (Yes good shot placement is critical even when using large caliber rifles!)

There is a discussion that helps clarify at Ideal Bullet Weight. This chart is included in the discussion, and you can see that premium bullets weighing 55-70 grains are pretty good for deer weighing less than about 125 lb. The chances of losing one generally increase as the bullet weight goes lower or one uses any classic bullet designed for the .223 Remington. The conclusions do not suggest that kills with 50, 55, and 60 gr classic bullets are abnormal, but one should be cautioned that these lighter bullets are marginal weights:

 

[Kevinbear]

There are lots of different ways to do it, my wife and I both killed deer this year with my crossbow, hers was 18 yards and mine was licking the ladder rung on the treestand when I shot him.

 

[fornra]

I have used two .224 bullets on deer so far with great results and both with the recommendations of a Sierra tech; The first was the Speer 70 gr simi spitzer, he told me that this was the best bullet on the market at that time for whitetail deer and it worked great, he was right. He also informed me that Sierra was perfecting their 65 gr Game King BT and when I saw it on the market I could feel confident it would be up to the task, ounce again he was right!
I have killed several deer with these bullets and all were one shot kills,I've never lost an animal hit with these two bullets! I don't take low percentage shots with them either as that would be foolish.
The Sierra's usually pass through with more damage than a bullet that size has any right to inflict. The Speer's tend to stop under the skin on the off side, not ideal for a blood trail but a full energy dump non the less.
I have a pair of Savage varmint rifles that I use for my deer hunting and both shoot very small groups,I shoot these rifles off a sandbag rest in my cabin with a 6 acre field planted for the deer and so placing the shot is not difficult.
When hunting anywhere that I might need to make an offhand shot I use my 1895 Marlin and it doesn't matter what angle I hit the deer from I get complete penetration, those 425 gr Bear tooth's don't know when to stop penetrating!

 

[hoffbill]

Marine man is exactly right, 223 will kill deer but it requires shot selection and placement. Not a good choice for a novice or marginal marksman. I've taken a lot of deer with neck shots and had no problems. I consider 100 yds max range for that. I have done several heart lung shots broadside with Vmax bullets as well. All liquified the heart and lungs. Again, 100 yds or less.

 

[bsn]

Bullet choice and the skill of the shooter have far more impact than caliber choice.

 

[Kevinbear]

The .223 / 5.56 with the proper bullets is reasonable for the smaller deer usually found in southern part of the States from Southern California through to Georgia and Florida. The key is shot placement, shot placement, bullet design, and bullet weight. (Yes good shot placement is critical even when using large caliber rifles!)

There is a discussion that helps clarify at Ideal Bullet Weight. This chart is included in the discussion, and you can see that premium bullets weighing 55-70 grains are pretty good for deer weighing less than about 125 lb. The chances of losing one generally increase as the bullet weight goes lower or one uses any classic bullet designed for the .223 Remington. The conclusions do not suggest that kills with 50, 55, and 60 gr classic bullets are abnormal, but one should be cautioned that these lighter bullets are marginal weights:

I would agree with the chart excepting that whitetail deer in northern climates are much larger than 125 lbs, around here there much closer to 200lbs and bigger as you go north, Saskatchewan whitetails are as big as any mule deer.

 

[Kevinbear]

Several states require .23 caliber or large but South Dakota is the only state that requires 1000 ft pounds of energy at the muzzle in a factory loading for a cartridge to be legal for use on deer and antelope.

But even then it's just a number and there is a lot more to it than that.

A .45 Colt for example, with a 250 gr lead round nose flat point bullet at maybe 1250 fps in a carbine or rifle will only generate around 830 ft pounds at the muzzle and only 620 ft pounds or so at 100 yards (compared to about 2885 fps and about 1000 ft pounds for the .223) but it, and cartridges like it, have been hitting deer like the hammer of God for decades.

Energy is one thing, but momentum is another. You get energy by taking the mass times the square of the velocity, while momentum is just mass times velocity. The latter equation gives a heavy bullet a considerable advantage, and many folks would agree that higher momentum numbers are a better indictor of killing power than energy.

At 100 yards, the 250 gr .45 Colt load mentioned above has 160% more momentum than the .223 load mentioned above. In addition, it'll cut a .452 diameter hole even if it has zero expansion. A .224 diameter bullet will need to expand to 202% of it's original diameter to match that.

Colorado requires 1000ft lbs/243 and other restriction to lengthy to detail.

 

[rifter]

I was reading about the 30-30 cartridge on Wikipedia and noticed that its muzzle energy is roughly equal to the 5.56 NATO at about 1,800 ft*lbs at the muzzle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56×45mm_NATO
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.30-30_Winchester

When people talk about an AR-15 for hunting they typically reference the ,223 Remington as the round being used (excluding 7.62 NATO, 300 AAC, etc). Now, since most AR-15's are chambered for the higher pressured 5.56 NATO round I see no reason why you wouldn't want to plan to hunt with a medium game bullet loaded to higher 5.56 pressures.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.223_Remington

Obviously, the 30-30 is a well respected deer round. So, why arn't people discussing using a heavy for caliber round loaded to 5.56 NATO pressures to produce energies matching the 30-30 when talking about hunting with an AR-15? Why do I only see threads talking about the ~28% weaker .223 Remington loading?

What am I missing guys? Educate me.

EDIT: I was informed that my #1 mistake was I misread the muzzle energy of the 5.56 as ~100 ft*lbs when it is, in fact, 1800 JOULES which is about 1300 ft*lbs, right in line with the .223 (as one would expect). This basically eliminates the entire question/argument.

You can kill a deer with a jack light and a .22 LR, too, but not if you're an ethical hunter. While a .223 or the hotter 5.56 will kill a deer, it depends on perfect shot placement. That tiny little bullet just doesn't have the diameter or the mass to defeat heavy bone, or plow through three feet of internals on a quartering shot. If you increase the bullet weight to something in the 75-90 gr. area you lose any advantage from the heavier bullet because you can't push it as fast as the 55 gr. (2550 vs. 3200). In addition, those longer bullets require a faster twist to stabilize (1:7) and most people are running 1:9, a few run 1:8. You'll be much better off using an established deer cartridge with a proven track record, like the .30-30, .243, .308, etc. If you have to use an AR, then I would recommend the 6.8 SPC. That round has a good rep as a deer cartridge, and an even better one as one for feral hogs (many of which outweigh the average whitetail).

 

[rifter]

I've always been told that you need about 1000 ft lb of energy at impact to reliably kill a deer. I've seen a few references as low as 800 ft lb. A 223 with a 64gr bullet stays above 800 out to about 180 yards, and above 1000 out to about 100 yards. With modern bullets that optimize mass retention and expansion, its not unreasonable to use the right 223 to take deer at relatively short ranges (less than 200 yards).

Too many people are hung up on energy. The old .44-40 in the Winchester 73 accounted for a lot of deer, antelope, buffalo, and Indians back in the 1870's and 80's. It is an anemic round as rifle cartridges go these days, but it had the advantage of a fairly large and heavy bullet. That was what made it work, not the amount of energy it generated at the muzzle.

 

[rifter]

I would agree with the chart excepting that whitetail deer in northern climates are much larger than 125 lbs, around here there much closer to 200lbs and bigger as you go north, Saskatchewan whitetails are as big as any mule deer.

Agreed. The whitetails around here in NW Illinois are all corn fed. Even the does run as much as 150-175 lbs, and I've seen plenty of big old bucks that easily tip the scales at 250.

 

[Kevinbear]

Agreed. The whitetails around here in NW Illinois are all corn fed. Even the does run as much as 150-175 lbs, and I've seen plenty of big old bucks that easily tip the scales at 250.

I've taken 35+ bucks and you never know when the opportunity will present itself to take a buck of a lifetime, I don't want to be under gunned when one of those moments arise.
In 2005 we had a 42" snow 3 days before the opening day of rifle deer season, the roads didn't get plowed until the second day of the season. We were both carrying 7-08's with 140 bt's. My wife had a buck tag and myself a doe tag, about 9am a lone buck came walking down the river bottom struggling through the snow drifts, I knew he was huge when I first seen him but didn't say anything because I didn't want her to get buck fever and miss. She made a perfect shot at 140 yards, he didn't flinch, on the second shot he hunched up a little but continued walking, on the third shot he finally fell. Then I let myself get excited, she couldn't believe how big he was, 7x8 non-typical 32.5 wide and weighed 385 pounds. I understand that in some parts of the country there are not any deer that size but it would be foolish to carry small calibers around here, I occasionally see good sized whitetails as well but have never had the chance to pull the trigger on one during the season.
My garage.

 

[Harvey/ Ga]

Well the biggest reason I can think of is the 5.56 is loaded with FMJ projectiles. Some reloading manuals offer service rifle data for 5.56x45. Those I've seen list the heavier match bullets which aren't acceptable for game hunting.

Sierra makes a nice, 63 gr. semi-pointed bullet that _might_ do for White Tail at moderate distances....at least the size of the ones here in N. Ga.

I've heard of other soft pointed weights, but can't remember much about them.
The 63 gr. can probably achieve 2900-3000, depending on barrel length.

While I have competed extensively with the AR-15 (HBAR), my deer rifle is a 6.5 bolt gun.

 

[silverhawk500]

FPE/sectional density/velocity/shot placement/bullet expansion/penetration sometimes do not mean SQUAT!! On 11/22/2013 my wife shot a smallish doe 140 lbs at 84 yds on the rangefinder, Bolt 30-06 with 180 gr bullet, doe was standing, broadside, calm. Lung shot/ 1/3 up from the chest, 1.5" back of the elbow. Minimal initial blood trail, it did increase slightly, but less than we usually see with an arrow. 90 yds we found the deer, on exam both lungs were shredded ( looking the same as the previous 100 deer) The shot was textbook, bullet exit hole was about 1.5" diameter, we have been using the same bullet load for 25+ yrs, Her last Boar and bear 235-250 lbs dropped in their tracks with the same heart lung shot ( 135 yds boar, 50 yds bear). We use an 06 with 180 or 308 with 165-175 depending on the gun. 223 with heavy for weight bullets will kill deer with optimum shot placement but you must be willing to pass up the shot if it is not right. Someone stated earlier that the 45-70 with good bullets would kill from any angle, I prefer not to damage meat so I use chest/neck/head shots or pass. I had to pass on a huge,gnarly,4-5 yr old 9 pt with great mass, that walked dead away from me and never lifted his head. Better to have a little more energy than a little less. Be Safe,

 

[bigjershooter]

I do not understand today,s way of thinking?I was carrying a M-14 rifle and it was taken away by the Marine Corp and I was issued a M-16 rifle.There was no way that I was impressed with it,s performance.More shoot and spray and pray with it then my trusted M-14.One hit with that 308 round and lights out!Now I see everyone buying AR-15,s and using them for everything.I would never hunt with a 22caliber rifle for deer.Varmints ok,but nothing else.I beleive that the minimum should be a 257Roberts for deer.You never know the angle that you will be presented with on a killing shot.Penetration is the key to killing quickly and humanly.by the way,I have never owned a M-16 rifle since I got out of the service in 1975.I never will.again I do not understand what all the fuss is?

 

[JonP]

1) Most AR-15's sold are not the 5.56 NATO round but the .223
2) 5.56 or 223 FMJ are not suitable for deer. Maybe coyote if you want the pelt but not whitetail. In a round this small expansion is critical.
3) A 223/5.56 would be ok for smaller deer but a round that small on a whitetail over 150lbs is dicey at best imho. I know that there are a ton of naysayers out there on this point but with all of the excellent cartridges out there why push this and risk wounding and losing a deer? If you are insisting on using the AR for larger bodied deer then buy a new upper in 300Blackout or similar and restrict the shots under 200yrds at most.

 

[JonP]

Agreed. The whitetails around here in NW Illinois are all corn fed. Even the does run as much as 150-175 lbs, and I've seen plenty of big old bucks that easily tip the scales at 250.

Indeed. Every year near my camp in NE Vermont someone takes a deer over 275lbs. I hate to think that I would see the 300lb buck of a lifetime in a swamp up there and have a 223 to try it with.
Here in NC where I am now, I think that any reasonable shot 100yrds or so with a 223 and good shot placement and the right ammunition would do as the deer here are very small.

BTW: My buddies wife just took a 160lb doe with her 7mm08. I doubt I'd want to use a 223 on one that size