While your lead is melting. Put the mold on a hot plate. The first bullet will be as good as the last.

 

John - Thank you for the advice. I look forward to trying these out.

 

keep us posted on your results.
I've been a .45 Colt rifle shooter for a year and a half now and this is the only thread I've found with "useful" information...keep it going.

 

I just purchased the Lyman 457122 mold and plan to begin casting with it after Christmas. These will be for my 45 Long Colt Express rifle...a Browning Low Wall. Thanks for all the data and experiences shared in this great thread.

 

I just purchased the Lyman 457122 mold and plan to begin casting with it after Christmas. These will be for my 45 Long Colt Express rifle...a Browning Low Wall. Thanks for all the data and experiences shared in this great thread.

Alan,
Welcome to the .45 Colt 457122 club. That bullet should work really well in your Low Wall. Once the mold is up to temperature and is casting well filled out bullets on the driving bands, if the nose is not completely filled out, use a propane torch for a few seconds to bring the pin up to temperature.

Once the nose is filling out well, you likely would not have to use the torch again.

Looking forward to hearing your results........

John

 

Great info in this thread.

 

John,

The suggestion to use the big bullets in the 45 Colt Trapper was a very good one.
The big Gould bullet and it’s NEI counterpart are now my two fist bullets of choice for the Winchester rifle.
I have the 457191 but still have not shot it in the Colt. I was thinking the 457191 would be a could selection for the Taurus Thunderbolt at modest velocities. My wifes rifles has a long barrel and I could load it to match the black powder 45-90.

[EDIT] Incidently, I believe you were the one who pointed me toward the Lee Old Army bullet designed for the Ruger Old Army revolver as a gallery load for the 45-70. The little Lee bullet is an excellent choice for gallery loads in the 45-70

 

Slim, to borrow an old cliche' "You just just can't keep a good topic down."

Here's a pic of some other heavy weight 45 Colt bullets along with the 457122.

John

 

John,
Odd you should bring this thread up again.
I was in Fort Worth last week for the “Ice Bowl” and discussed this thread and loading the 457122HP with a fellow shooter. My new friend has a Winchester Model 94 and a Browning single shot hunter, along with the Lyman mold. I hope to hear of his shooting results soon, and the we will have information on the Browning chamber. I have urged him to shoot his bullets as cast and pan or hand lubed.
The weather was so bad we didn’t visit any stores and it was pretty tough working outside for us warm weather types. We had a bit of time to discuss the more important things in life such as cast bullets and 45 Colt rifles. It always surprises me how many people we run into who shoot a 45 Colt rifle.

 

It's been almost 2 years since the last post. Thought I would bring it up again in case someone had an interest..........

John

 

John,

I am very disappointed as I had hoped to read of his results with the 457122HP.
I learned quite a lot about my wife’s rifle while shooting these.
We have a new camera and have been practicing burst picture strings. Our hope is to take a few pictures of the 444 Timber rifle shooting the 310-grain Lee bullet using both ball and extruded powders. The extruded powders such as 4198 have a tongue of fire 5 inches long and an inch in diameter while the ball powders simply put out a fireball.
The 45 Colt using Lil’ Gun and the big bullets is somewhere in between.
The 45 Colt rifle loaded with these heavy bullets is quite a rifle. I have a friend with a 454 Puma but I have not yet been able to try a dummy in it to see if it will chamber.

Have you seen this new sight from Burris?

http://www.burrisoptics.com/pdf/FastFire%20Product%20Guide.pdf

 

Slim,
If you pm your address, I'll send you a .303 Savage Short Range ctg. I'll need to pull the bullet, dump the powder and remove the primer so I can send it to you though.

WHen I get a chance, I think I'll start a thread regarding the "Short Range" cartridges.

John

 

the stabs may not have been used by American factories, it would make sense that they didnt. what surprised me most about the .25-35, .30-30 and the .38-55 was how deep the cannalures were rolled in. If you reloaded these very often with a Tong tool you had better keep an eye on case length because the case would surely grow a lot with a full power load.

I am looking around for a .303 Savage Short Range cartridge for my collection but I dont play on auction sites so it will take a while longer for me.

The WCF book has been a good study for some of these lesser known cartridges. I really appreciate your pointing this book and the web site out to me.

 

Slim,
Yes indeed. This was quite a lot of fun and educational. Thanks much for your input.

Glad to hear that you found a .30-30 Short Range cartridge. I don't believe that the factories ever used a "stab" cannelure. I have probably 20+ .30-30 Short Range cartridges and all have the circular cannelure.

Testing the various powders from those SR ctgs. (4.4 - 7.0 grs.), velocities ran anywhere from 1,140 to just over 1,200 f.p.s. effectively duplicating .32-20 b.p. ballistics.

As you may know, Short Range ctg's. were also made for the .25-35, .303 Savage, .32-40, .38-55 & .45-70.

Neat history!

John

 

MC, did you get your Colt rifle?

John, this was quite a bit of fun and I learned quite a bit from it. I have studied heavy bullets and H-110 and W 296 loading data quite a bit from this and hope to use the information on the .327 federal.
After your thread on the .30-30 I finally bought a .30-30 Short Range cartridge for study. Mine has a deep cannalure. I would like to see one with case indents. I have been studying the Lyman case indenter. The short range cartridges for the .30-30 and .303 Savage is an interesting area of study.

 

MC, did you get your Colt rifle?

William,
It looks like Marlin Collector has not posted anything since May 10th, 2006. I hope he is still with us.

John

 

Thought I would bring this interesting thread up again since there have been recent interests on heavy bullets in the .45 Colt.

Wow! 4,165 views!

John

 

Blackhawk44,

I am planning to pan lube the unsized bullets and size in two steps with Lee Push-Through dies (.457" and .454"). I'm assuming the groove diameter of the M94 will handle a .454" bullet. I'd almost wager the chamber is wide enough for a .454" bullet.

Can you be more specific about the experience necessary to keep the stud (or spud... I've seen it both ways) hot. I preheat my moulds on a hot plate, use a Rowell#2 ladle and my pot can consistently maintain over 800F. What else do I need? Will a coat of butane soot or mould release on the stud help?

TMC

Try the Lee liquid lube , lazy man's way to lube .

I use one of the " butane matches " that is used to light the burners on gass appliances , to smoke my molds .

If done carefully , you can also ise the spray that Midway sells . Apply several " coats " and reduce the ID of the mold , reducing the OD of the bullet .

This reduces the amount that you have to " size down " the bullet .

I shoot .45-70 & as an experiment , have sized down bullets 1 - 2 for .45 LC . Never fired any , though .

I have owned a S&W M25-5 for a few years & just bought a Puma .45 LC .

Shot it the other day w/ 230 RNL & 250 FPL ammo I had on hand ( loaded for the S&W ) .

If you are going to shoot a lot , I reccomend the Lee 6 cavity molds . Unfortunatly I have not found .45-70 molds lisred in 6 cavity .

God bless
Wyr


P. S. Be aware , all the pistol calaber lever guns I have seen are on the light side .

Feed them with heavy bullets at high velocity and they will be real THUMPERS !

I have a Marlin .45-70 . Trying to make a .45 LC ( in a light rifle ) into a mini - .45-70 will prove to have a down side , recoil .

My Marlin .44 Mag surprised me by having enough recoil to encourage me to install a slip on recoil pad .

 

John, Just read through the full thread and that last post was the only place I listed the bullet as 388 grains - I corrected it. Just weighed seven 457122HP as cast and hand lubed = 354.2 grains average. The average of seven NEI solid bullets = 367.2 grains with gas check and no lube. Must have lost my mind.

I was just starting to feel uncomfortable about someone putting one of these heavy bullet loads in a S&W M-25 or a Colt clone. I feel better after looking at hodgdons data. I just tried to slip one of the dummies I have made up into my wifes Model 25, it will not chamber due to the large bullet diameter.

 

Slim,

Quote "Looking at Homer Powleys math via W. C. Davis NRA
Powly has trouble with small cartridge cases and more trouble when they are large bore. The velocity estimate is 1264 fps at 51,086 psi (CUP)."

As you said, " Powley has trouble with small cartridge cases" and this would be one example where the Powley estimated pressure is "way off" since Hodgdon shows the following 45 colt loads for Rugers, TC's......at a 1.68" cartridge length:

325 gr LFN PB
17.0 / Lil Gun / 20,700 CUP
21.0 / H110 /18,100 CUP

360 gr. WLN GC
18.0 / Lil Gun / 29,700 CUP
21.0 / H110 / 28,300 CUP

The seating depth of the bullets is not given, but 20.0 grs. of H110 under a 330 gr. Gould is definitely in the safe <30,000 CUP range.

Does your 457122 weigh 388 grs? That seems a bit heavy.

Happy New Year,
John

 

John,
Looking at Homer Powleys math via W. C. Davis NRA Handloading Manual.
This .45 Colt load using the 457122HP at my weight of 368 grains seated to a COAL of 1.600". The bullet is .914" long so it is seated about .599". The 16" barrel is actualy 14.4" from base of bullet to muzzle. This is about 30.3 grains of water to the base of the bullet.

Powly has trouble with small cartidge cases and more trouble when they are large bore.
The velocity estimate is 1264 fps at 51,086 psi (CUP).
In the last outing using magnum primers I got 1388 and 1404 fps as you will recall.
Even taking into account the formulas trouble with small, large bore cases this is a high pressure load. Special care should be taken to ensure it does not end up in "normal" .45 Colt handguns. Your idea of renaming the cartidge is a good one. MC's idea of using a COAL of 1.700" is also a good one as this, combined with the large diameter bullet, probaly will not allow the cartridge to chamber in a revolver cylinder.

 

John,
If you have Rifle No. 223, January-February issue, have you seen the review of the .454 Puma? The rifle is not of any real importance here but the performance information for the .454 cartridge in the 20” barrel is a good basis for comparison.
Using factory 300-grain ammunition Brian Pearce reported a little over 2,000 fps from Winchester and Hornady ammunition. This good for about 2,650 fpe. 300-grain handloads came up just short of 2,050 fps.
Interestingly Pearce used a Cast Performance 335 grain Wide Long Nose bullet loaded to 1.760” He reported the Puma cycled this round through its action without difficulty.
Brian Pearce fired 200 rounds of factory ammo in two days. Even with a pad he had to have been pushed around quite a bit. He reported recoil as “lively” but manageable, if the shooting sessions were limited to “reasonable numbers.”
I have fired 50 of the heavy bullets loads from the bench at one sitting and while I didn’t cry uncle, I was happy to take a break.
This article give us a reasonable benchmark to compare our heavy bullet .45 Colt loads, even if our bullets are a little heavier.

 

William,
Based on yours and my experiences, the magnum pistol primers hold no advantage over the standard primers at the 30,000 psi level. At a lower pressure level there probably would be a noticeable difference.

Interestingly, several years ago when I was wringing out some .44-40 loads using H4227 powder in my newly acquired '73 Winchester (1882), magnum primers gave more consistant results and a 100 f.p.s. advantage in 14,000 p.s.i. level loads (1,250 f.p.s.).

Earlier this year, a friend and I tested some higher velocity .44-40 loads in his '92 Winchester. We found that as the velocity / pressure increased, the magnum pistol primer velocity advantage gradually diminished. At 1,700 f.p.s. with a 200 gr. bullet, velocities were pretty much the same with either primer.

Sincerely,
John

 

MC
It will be interesting to read of your 1.7" trials. You were sure correct about 1500 fps with the 300 grain bullets in the short barrels. It is being done.
I suggest Hodgdon Lil' Gun when you get started.
This is a very interesting topic to study.
I will post some bullet pictures on the 26" .30-30 thread in the morning.

 

Slim,

Your involvement with the .45 Trapper is commendable. I wish I could add to the knowledge spewing forth here. Wish me luck, I'm going to try to add a .45 Colt carbine to my rack after Christmas. In the mean time, I need to make up my mind whether it be a Marlin or a Wincheeseter I do want to be able to shoot a 1.7+ inch cartridge and I want a packable little powerhouse as well as a fun-time plinker/pest destroyer.

Between home repairs, work and the Holidays I'm finding it difficult even attending to my favorite 30-30; however, I'm getting ready to put the last touches on my 205 grain (in WW metal) .30 PB mould that I'll have Mountain Molds cut for me. When I get back from the laser printer repair guy I'll take a look at the 30-30 thread. You're talking about the 30-30 vs. 30-30AI thread, right?

Regards and Merry Christmas,
MC

 

MC – Not certain why these heavy bullet .45 Colt loads hold such a fascination for me but they certainly do. It may be because the Trapper is over two pounds lighter than my Guide Gun!
I weighed five each unprimed cases. W-W cases weighed an average of 111.4 gr. R-P cases weighed an average of 104.6 gr. Midway cases weighed an average of 111.3 gr. I have loaded the 457122hP in Midway cases and there is no doubt they have less internal capacity. The .457” bullet bulging the case significantly. More on case capacity later.
I went back to Ken Waters Pet Loads article on the Winchester Trapper in Handloader # 149 (1/2-1991) to review. Waters weighed three brands of cases. W-W weighing 114 gr. R-P cases weighing 105 gr. Federal cases weighing 122 gr. So I think I have been dealing with about the same case capacity he had.
Once keyed to look for it by his article I too noticed a difference in feel while sizing and belling W-W cases. KW felt the difference in case neck tension in the W-W cases contributed to an occasional low velocity shot over his chronograph.
Waters did not use 300 grain bullets in his test of the Trapper. He did use the 250 grain Hornady JHP bullet ahead of 19.0 grains of H110. This load sparked by the Federal magnum pistol primer in the W-W case gave him 1374 fps.
The same bullet ahead of 21.0 gr of W296 gave him 1401 fps in the Federal case.
Ken Waters listed both of these loads as “Near Max.”

It would really be fun to have Ken Waters as a Forum Member so we could discuss this subject in-depth. Ken used commercial cast bullets sized to .4515”. He also used home cast bullets to .452”.
Both of these bullets are undersize for the throats of our rifles and it would be fun to discuss this with someone who has given the subject a great deal of thought and practical experimentation. All of our thinking on this article has to be placed in the context of time. Things have changed considerably since this test was published.
I have cast several Winchester chambers with Cerrosafe and they all match the chamber drawings in W. C. Davis NRA Handloading Book as closely as I can measure. With that thought in mind we know that KW knew the size of the .45 Colt chamber in the Trapper when he tested it. It would be fun to discuss this subject.

Like me, KW was wedded to the 1.60” COAL. I am not certain why Waters held rigidly to this COAL and I would be interested in his thinking on this. I use the 1.60” COAL because I want the bullet seated firmly on the powder column. I also believe my wife’s rifle shoots a little better (smaller groups, more uniform velocities) at this overall length.

Ken Waters liked the .45 Colt Trapper very much but he felt the Colt could not equal the .44 Magnum Trapper in velocity and power. Waters reasoning on this seemed to center on the cartridge case, not on rifle strength. .
In Handloader #188 Waters answered a question on the Colt Trapper and said that 1500 fps could be approached using 250 grain bullets (I have not discovered any KW writing on 300 grain or heavier bullets in the .45 Colt cartridge). Waters top load in the above article was a 250 grain jacketed bullet at 1440 fps. His fastest cast bullet loads in the Trapper were 1400 fps.

It is disappointing that Waters does not list his PRE measurements for the .45 Colt Trapper. I do not believe he restricted himself to .001” PRE during his Trapper tests.

Jay Turner wrote an updated test of the .45 Colt Trapper in Rifle #151, ½-1994. Things had changed a lot by then, probably due to the influence of silhouette shooters. Turner used several 300 grain bullets in his test of the Trapper.
Jay Turners results with the 300cgrain bullets are interesting and deserved to graphed.
300 gr Hornady XTP 24.0 gr H110 1532 fps.
300 gr Speer FN 24.0 gr H110 1476 fps.
300 gr LBT LFN 24.0 gr H110 1586 fps.
300 Hornady JHP 24.0 gr H110 1530 fps. (this is a .45-70 bullet)
300 Hornady JHP 26.0 gr H110 1592 fps. (this may be the warmest load I have discovered in mainstream printing)

It looks to me like the low velocity gain between 24.0 and 26.0 grains of H110 indicates Turner has reached a practical maximum at 24.0 grains.
During Turners tests Alliant Reloder 7 came up short velocity wise in the Trapper.

Jay Turner used another .45-70 bullet in the Trapper. He loaded the Lee 340 grain bullet ahead of 21.0 grains of H110 and reached 1353 fps with this load.

Looking at my accuracy results with these heavy bullets indicates I am shooting 3” groups at 50 yards with open sights – and not every group is that good. This taking some rough averages, I have gotten better with loads the more I shot them and I believe the heavy bullets may be more accurate than lighter bullet – recoil taken into account.
Jay Turner wrote of some accuracy problems with his Trapper. He felt the rifle could be “finicky” Turner did report some 1” groups at 100 yards using a low power scope – but not many. Turners average groups size with the 300 grain bullets at full power appears to have been 4” at 100 yards. Personally, I am impressed.

Anyway, lots to think about. If anyone knows of any other in-depth high performance load tests involving the Winchester M-94 Trapper or Marlin 1894 in .45 Colt I would like to here about them. I believe Dave Scovill may have the most collected knowledge on loading the .45 Colt to higher levels. Anyone having access to the on-line Load files at Handloader might want to look for heavy bullet .45 Colt data, I also believe there is a whole untapped group in the single shot shooting groups of TC, NEF Handi rifle and of course the “Rossi” Model 92 shooters who will have significant contributions to make. It will take a little searching on the various Forums and some sifting through past threads.

I added two pictures to give perspective to the different COAL

 

Slim,

"What size groups at 50 yards are you shooting with that Trapper?"

The majority of the shots (all but three out of the total) were inside a 4" vertical by 2.5" horizontal area. I planned to bring the aiming square home and measure it on Greg Mushials Target Tool on RCBS Load. The aim spot was pretty shot up. I drove off and forgot it due to all the talking... I was using a 6" wide by 8" tall black aiming square of construction paper. 6" wide is just about right for my eyes at fifty yards (my preffered chronograph distance). Using a six o'clock hold the blade front sight is just about the same width to my eyes.
By resting my right hand in the hollow on the front bag and grasping the forend I have a good steady hold. The rifle will sometimes get away from this hand as due to a previous injury (broken wrist) I dont have as good a grip with my right hand as I desire. With my left elbow on a small bag, the toe of the butt on another bag and pulling the butt into my strap-on shoulder pad I have a pretty solid hold.
There is a lot of muzzle rise in recoil with these heavy bullets and I could have a little better bench technique. I am using the issue rear sight and if the rifle were mine I would install a Marbles flat top folding rear sight for a better sight picture.
I believe better sights would help a lot but the big factor is managing the recoil for each shot the same way.

"Question 2: Why are you guys stopping at 20 grains of 296? Isn't it possible to go beyond 1500 fps with 457122 in a .45 Colt carbine/rifle?"

I have no idea how fast these big bullets can be pushed in the 16" barrel. To be truthful I was just following yours and John Kort's lead! The bullet weighs over 380 grains (with my soft lead) so I am assuming we are running 29,000 CUP or so. There is some published .45 Colt load data that has been pressure tested at over 30,000 CUP, so I am assuming we could go a little faster. Adding a grain or two of powder would increase the COAL (with the bullet seated hard on the powder column) and keep the base of the bullet above the cannalure on the Winchester brass - a good thing.
If DZTRAM is back on line and lurking he may be able to add a little here as he shoots the .454 Cassul in a Rossi. I think there are others on this Forum who are also members of the Yahoo Groups - 454 and 2guntommy. These two groups have a pretty active core group who are shooting warm .45 Colt and .454 Cassul in the short rifle. They may have comments on the potential of the Colt cartridge in the short rifle.

If I go any higher I will have to harden my bullets by either water quenching or oven heat treating. My bullets are so soft they problably are being pushed around a lot as they enter the rifling. This can cause them to slug up in the throat and raise pressure. I have experienced no leading with my loads so the throat is sealed for sure. While these loads are warm I have no reason to believe they are maximum.

Edit] MC, I ment to ask if you had seen my post on the other thread about heavy bullets in the 26" .30-30? We are getting some very good results with bullets up 220 grains in the Winchesters. I have some pictures to post that I think you will find interesting.]Edit