I have the 457122HP mold but have not shot the bullet in the .45 Colt.

I also have the 457191 300 grain solid bullet (.45-90 express bullet). I have shot this bullet in the .45 Colt - the Winchester Model 94 Trapper and a 10" TC barrel in .45 Colt. My mold is an old one and not quite round. When I size it down to .455" it about wipes the grease grooves off. I may have some in a box I'll look and see. If I do I'll post a picture.

 

Thanks for the reply Slim...

So, how do you like your M94 in .45Colt? Actually, I'm trying to decide between the Marlin 1894 and the Winchester 94. Of the two, I want a carbine that will digest the widest selection of esoteric handloads. I don't shoot jacketed bullets and want the best performance possible with cast bullets ranging from about 225 grains (RCBS 45-225) to near 400 grains; i.e., I'm looking for a 45-70 junior grade. The first mould I'd probably acquire is the RCBS 45-270, so this carbine has to be able to feed semi-wadcutters too.

TMC

 

"So, how do you like your M94 in .45Colt?"

It is actualy my wifes. She lets me load for it and clean it....
It is a color case hardened and checkered stock trapper. There are some pictures of it somewhere on the Model 94 forum here.
This is a great little rifle. It will feed any bullet shape. My wife likes it for the thump the bullets make on the backstop. She generaly shoots clay birds with it. The heaviest bullet we have shot regularly in it is Lee 300 grain round flat. This is a weight forward design but not really an LBT style bullet.

"Actually, I'm trying to decide between the Marlin 1894 and the Winchester 94. Of the two, I want a carbine that will digest the widest selection of esoteric handloads."

If those were my requirements I would choose the Winchester. In my experiance they will feed anything.


"The first mould I'd probably acquire is the RCBS 45-270"

Personaly I would not spend time on the RCBS bullet. I would look at what Marshal has to offer and try a selection of Beartooth LBT style bullets. Nothing I have played with beats the LBT style bullet for down range performance/penetration. Trying a selection of what is available will give you and idea of what kind of mold to Veral Smith cut for you.

There are several things to remember here. First, get a hold of Ken Waters Pet Loads article on loadinghigh performance .45 Colts for the Winchester Trapper.
Second remember that recoil climbs fast in this rifle, give some thoughts to a Past pad for bench work. I dont worry about pads much in the field and have left the thin pad on my .444 Timber rifle. It kicks some but I dont think much about it when hunting. At the bench I wear a pad.
If you dont haveit yet, get Veral Smiths book Jacketed Performance with Cast Bullets. I have made up an index for this book. Not the best but works for me. It is an interesting book.
Third, give a lot of thought to your sight selection. Your sights need to be strong. If you choose a scope start antother thread and we will all give you our two cents worth!

 

Slim...

A scoped levergun! What the heck is this world coming to

Anyway, I guess I'll have to drill some holes in the receiver because Winchester seems to believe the Williams FP (my choice for a rear sight these days) is out of style.

An LBT mould would definitely be on my list but I would want to play with this carbine for a year or two on the range before considering taking anything larger than coyote with it. I'd even want to play with some APC type bullets for fun and home defense loads. Versatility is the name of the game but basically, the first year or two I'll be playing with mostly plain base fodder... hopefully wheelweight metal exclusively (1300 to 1400fps stuff).

TMC

 

"A scoped levergun! What the heck is this world coming to"

Unfortunatly middle age has my front sight squarely in its hands!


"Anyway, I guess I'll have to drill some holes in the receiver because Winchester seems to believe the Williams FP (my choice for a rear sight these days) is out of style.


William makes a reciever sight that atteches by the two rear scope base holes. No need for drilling!

I had ment to mention that in addition to the ability to feed about any bullet you seat in a case the Winchester in pistol calibers is not as sensitive to COAL as the Marlin 1894 in pistol calibers. This will give you quite a bit of wiggle room when it comes to load testing.


" I'd even want to play with some APC type bullets for fun and home defense loads."


My wife has shot several thousand 230 lead round nose .45 ACP bullets through her rifle at modest velocities. Great fun!

 

I would play with other mold designs before tackling 457122. I takes a little experience to become adept keeping the hollowpoint pin warm enough for consistant results. Second, reducing that one from the as-cast diameter of .459-.460 to .452-.454 can be stressful on something like the Lyman 450 sizer. Better would be the Lee push-thru sizer. Be sure to lube the grooves PRIOR to sizing. That will give the needed resistance to the sizer wiping off the lube grooves. Almost any good 300gr designed specifically for the Colt should be preferred.

 

Blackhawk44,

I am planning to pan lube the unsized bullets and size in two steps with Lee Push-Through dies (.457" and .454"). I'm assuming the groove diameter of the M94 will handle a .454" bullet. I'd almost wager the chamber is wide enough for a .454" bullet.

Can you be more specific about the experience necessary to keep the stud (or spud... I've seen it both ways) hot. I preheat my moulds on a hot plate, use a Rowell#2 ladle and my pot can consistently maintain over 800F. What else do I need? Will a coat of butane soot or mould release on the stud help?

TMC

 

Never had a problem with release, but a casting speed that will keep the pin warm can be taxing. I know of no other cure.

 

Blackhawk44,

Please indicate the temperature you maintain your melt when casting 457122. Do you ladle pour or bottom pour. If you ladle pour, who's ladle do you use?

Thank you for the input,
TMC

P.S. Actually, I was thinking that the function of mould release may be to retard heat dissipation but I don't think (I've never worked with this stuff) since it is graphite based (I just examined what Midsouth carries) it probably wouldn't be as effective in that regard as a coat of carbon from a butane flame. I've heard that the Frankfort Arsenal mould release decreases as-cast bullet diameter, so perhaps it may help in the process of reducing .459s/.460s down to .457.

 

Sorry. Do not have a casting thermometer and the scale on the rheostat means nothing. Have never had a problem with pin release and have never used 'releases', even on molds. Just something that I haven't run into with my 38 molds in the last 35 years...

 

MarlinCollector,

I have used the 457122 in my .45 Colt Marlin Cowboy. It shoots very well with 100 yard groups in the 2 1/2"-3" range if I do my part.

My favorite load is 20 grs./296 for 1,380 f.p.s. which pretty much replicates the old .45-70-330 black powder load.

I have fired this bullet at 300 meters on the NRA steel Javelina and 500 meters on the NRA steel Ram and it holds up well.

Since fired cases from my rifle (crimp ironed out) will accept a .459" bullet with little resistance, I size the 457122 to .457" and shoot them that way.

My rifle's bore measures .4525" so the bullet sizes down nicely going into the barrel and shoots well with no detectable pressure increase.

The alloy I use is w.w. + 2% tin.

Have fun,
John

 

John,

Wow, that Marlin really has generous dimensions! I wonder if the Winchester is in the same ballpark? With all due respect though, I'm not impressed by 2.5" to 3" groups at 100 yards unless you're shooting open sights on that Marlin. Typically, my goal for a lever action rifle with a receiver sight and fine post or crosshair is in the 1-1.5 MOA range for three to five rounds. Is it possible to achieve that kind of accuracy in a .45Colt levergun with plain base bullets? Is 1.5 to 2 MOA more realistic, or should I stick to my bottle necked cartridges with gaschecked bullets?

Anyway, please describe any casting pitfalls you have run into with 457122 and how you solved them.

Thank you,
TMC

P.S. I can't help wondering if there is any fouling in your barrel after a bunch (50 to 100) of rounds have been literally squeezed through it.

 

" With all due respect though, I'm not impressed by 2.5" to 3" groups at 100 yards unless you're shooting open sights on that Marlin. "

I think that pretty good shooting for almost any day with an untuned factory lever action, recievcer sight (I assume) or low power scope. It is pretty hard to do everything the same, five times in a row with a pretty heavy load. 1380 fps with a 322 grain bullet is a pretty good load for a light leveraction. Managing recoil, using the same sight setting, handling recoil (follow through) are all pretty tough and those heavy -for the caliber bullets will have you talking too yourself!
If you reduce the velocity to the 1000 fps level of even slower you can really tighten up the groups.

"Typically, my goal for a lever action rifle with a receiver sight and fine post or crosshair is in the 1-1.5 MOA range for three to five rounds. "

That is a pretty tough goal for cast bullets and any lever action rifle. .44 caliber an up at low velocity you will shoot a few groups like that. Believe it or not you may come cloeser to your goal with a good paper patch bullet.

"Anyway, please describe any casting pitfalls you have run into with 457122 and how you solved them."

I personaly have had no pit falls with the 457122 mold. I have been casting hollow points with Lyman molds since I was a teen ager and I had a few problems early on. I run the melt Hot! I dip the pin into the melt initialy to get it vey hot. I often dip the sprue plate into the melt to get it hot. As long as the mold and pin start off hot and your melt is hot your only problem is paitience.

 

Thanks Slim...

I used to dip stuff in the hot metal until I found a nice electric hot plate at Wal-Mart. Starting the mould on the hot plate at the same time I turn on the furnace gives me a mould that is read to accept metal before the metal is ready; i.e., one can use it as a branding iron

I realize my requirements for accuracy may be a little steep for a pistol cartridge lever gun but that level of accuracy is certainly there with respect to my .444 which is nothing more that a stretched .44Magnum.

TMC

 

Thanks Slim...

I used to dip stuff in the hot metal until I found a nice electric hot plate at Wal-Mart. Starting the mould on the hot plate at the same time I turn on the furnace gives me a mould that is ready to accept metal before the metal is ready. I placed my thermometer inside a cavity of RCBS 30-180FN after sitting it on the hot plate for about 15 minutes and it registered about 450F.

I realize my requirements for accuracy may be a little steep for a pistol cartridge lever gun but that level of accuracy is certainly there with respect to my .444 which is nothing more that a stretched .44Magnum.

TMC

 

I have thought about a hot plate but never got around to getting one. Its on my "someday" and "nice to have" list.

I have posted three pictures of the 457122 loaded in the .45 Colt. Next to it is the NEI solid nose gas check version of the Gould bullet. Then next to it is the Lyman 454616 245 grain bullet. The large lube grooves are helpful with black powder in the summer.
This one is loaded just under 1.600" - about 1.595". This length gives a little better accuracy in the Winchester. There is plenty of powder room so loading them shorter is not a problem.

[Moderator -if the pictures are duplicates feel free to delete them. I am still learning how to operate the "new" camera]

 

Slim,

Try saving the file as a 24-bit JPEG. The number of pixels (resolution) is fine.

Regards,
TMC

 

Well I am a slow learner!

 

Slim... don't worry about it... I've been involved in graphic design for over 12 years. Those are nice pics. Is the first bullet on the left 457122 sized to .454"? It looks great!

TMC

 

Is the first bullet on the left 457122 sized to .454"? It looks great!TMC

Yes, the seated bullet and the first in line is the Lyman 457122. This one sized to .457". I belled the full length sized case and seated the .457" bullet 1.595" with no problems. The cartridge chambered in the Winchester M-94AE Trapper with no difficulty. ( This rifle prefers the shorter length to the nominal length of 1.600") I have not tried the NEI solid bulet setting next to it in the Winchester yet. NEI lists this bullet as their #338 with a nominal weight of 355 grains. (320 grains without the gas check shank). While not an exact copy of the Gould bullet it is close. I have used them both in the Marlin Guide gun and they both shoot very well. I have killed several deer with the Gould bullet but only one with the NEI bullet.
The Lyman muzzle loader bullet is a great plinker. there is .45 Colt load data for it in the Lyman pistol book.

 

MarlinCollector,

The group sizes are for 5 rounds on an average day. 3 of the 5 rounds are always between 1 1/2 to 2". Best 5 shot group to date was 1.67" @ 100.

My barrel has a restriction under the rear sight, one of these days I'm going to fire lap it. That will probably improve things somewhat. Also, if my eyes were younger, that would help too. A more accomplished shooter could also do better, no doubt.

One thing about the 457122/20/296/.45 Colt load, the accuracy holds up over longer distances. Some guns may shoot fine @ 100 but at 300 yards, the bullets are flying all over the place. Not so with this load. It works, even at 500 meters!

.45 Colt chambers run a bit larger on the average. I have 3 Ruger Blackhawks and the Marlin Cowboy and that is the case with them.

A friend of mine bought a Winchester '92 in .45 Colt a few years ago. He could not get it to shoot 250 gr. cast or jacketed bullets at all - groups of 3" + @ 50 yards. He is an accomplished Camp Perry competitor and trieda number of different load combinations with no luck.

One day we were at the range and I gave him some of the .457"457122/20/296/.45 Colt to try. They chambered fine and he shot a nice 1" group @ 50 yards with them. He was very happy to say the least.

For my Marlin, I can load the 457122's to about 1.71" long, crimpng behind the front driving band. They will work through the magazine fine at that length.

I have also loaded them to William Iorg's 1.60" length, crimping over the front driving band. Accuracy seems to be about the same either way.

William, that makes 2 Winchester's, 1 Marlin, and 3 .45 Colt Rugers that will chamber .45 Colt cartridges loaded with .457" bullets.

John

 

John,

"One thing about the 457122/20/296/.45 Colt load."

I intend to try your 296 load.


"William, that makes 2 Winchester's, 1 Marlin, and 3 .45 Colt Rugers that will chamber .45 Colt cartridges loaded with .457" bullets."

I think we have enough data there to say the 457122 will work in most all .45 Colts. I intend to try it in my wifes S&W Model 25 also - just to see if it will chamber and how long the cylinder is.

I also have the Lyman 300 grain 457191 mold. I dont have any cast up right now but I have shot some of them through the Winchester and they shot fine.

 

William,

Hopefully it works well for you. At the 1.71" length I have pushed the 457122 bullet to almost 1,600 f.p.s. with no problems other than increased recoil. I just like the replication of the slower .45-70-330 b.p. load.

My Marlin is an earlier one and has the slower 1/38" twist. At 1,250 f.p.s. there is scuffing at the target. At 1,380 f.p.s. all is well. Interesting that it shoots good at extended distances with the bullet just above full stabilization velocity. I guess it proves that rotational velocity decays very slowly.

I also have the 457191 mold. It's an earlier Ideal one and the face of the front driving band is at a slight angle to help ease the bullet out of the crimp. Like yourself, I have found that it works well in the .45 Colt as does the 457192.

Other .45 molds I have are the RCBS 300 G.C. (320 grs in w.w.), 457192 (350 gr. .45-75 bullet), 457193 (400 gr..45-70 Marlin bullet), 457125, RCBS 400 G.C., Lee340 & 400 gr.

These bullet molds do use up a lot of lead in a hurry!

John

 

John/Slim,

I've gotta say... this is fascinating stuff.

John, how do you keep your 1600fps 457122 loads from fouling the bbl? What kind of alloy are you using? Heat treated wheelweights?

Now I'm wondering if the 26" twist of the M94 would be better than the faster 16" twist of the Marlin 1894.

TMC

 

MarlinCollector,

I have fired, maybe only about 15 rounds with the higher powder charge but did not experience any leading that I could detect. I use w.w.+2% tin alloy not heat treated. I lube with the NRA formula of 50/50 Alox/Beeswax.

Perhaps a longer shooting session would lead to leading problems at the higher velocity. The cure for that would be either an upside down sized gas check or a .06" thick polyethylene wad.

I don't think the quicker twist would make much difference and besides with your name, would there be any place for a Winchester in your collection?

John