I dont see how these bullets can lead regardless of how soft they are. At .457" they will fill the throat. If gas is not able to get around them they will not lead.

I shoot pretty soft lead in all of my rifles. In my Guide Gun I will sometimes see light lead up toward the muzzle. This brushes out without difficulty.
Once I got the idea of filling the troat firmly in my head I have not suffered serious leading problems.

I too use 50 50 Alox exclusivly. I have tried some of the more exotic lubricants but have always returned to Alox. I dont have a prefference in brand and have used Lyman, Javalina and Lee with equal results.

 

John,

Actually, the Marlin 1894 has the quicker twist these days. The reason for me owning a Wincheeseter in .45 Colt is two-fold. I believe the M94 is stronger than the M1894 and the latter obviously has more action length so it should be (?) able to digest a wider variety of handloads. I want to replicate the 45-70-405 in a lever action carbine before driving pressures into 40K PSI (36K CUP) neighborhood. The only reason for me not buying a M94 is due to the fact I can perform an action job on the M1894 without breaking a sweat.

Slim,
I'm under the impression that if the shot's pressure curve doesn't suit the alloy, fouling will be deposited in the bbl regardless of fit. On the other hand, I'm not sure those who came up with this theory experimented with bullets that closely fit the CHAMBER while being .005" over bore diameter. Usually fouling near the muzzle indicates the lube has pooped out and friction is wiping metal off the bullet... but you probably know that already.

Regards,
TMC

 

"I'm under the impression that if the shot's pressure curve doesn't suit the alloy, fouling will be deposited in the bbl regardless of fit. "

That is almost right. If you go over to Charles Hamiltons Yahoo list: CB-L and look for posts by Norm Johnson you will learn a great deal about bullet fit. Norm shoots UNLUBED cast bullets in handguns and rifles.
Following Norms guidelines we found that we can shoot the LBT style NEI 180 grain bullet in the Winchester Model 94AE Trapper with no lube at full power. We have shot many of these and were forced to load them in front of witnesses at San Angelo Gun Club to prove it! In the Winchester, the NEI bullet does not leave a lead deposit in the 16" barrel. Norm gives a better description of the load technique and why it works than I can. I should point out that if the bullet does not fit it will lead from leade to muzzle!

 

While loading the 457122HP bullets I took a little look around at other heavy bullet data for the .45 Colt.
Frank Marshall in the Fouling Shot #52 described a philosophy of heavy for the caliber bullets he dubbed BOWM: Bench of Woods Marshall. These heavy for the caliber bullets are best described as providing a 10 to 15% weight increase and 30 to 50% increase in bore ride bearing surface.
Frank Marshall described his use of the Ideal 457191 300 grain bullet sized to .457 in the .45 Colt.
Two quotes from the article: A notable as the whump increase, was the improved accuracy of this longer bearing overall form.
I dont recommend this .45 Colt hot magnumizing and mention it only due to the notable accuracy with the semi-BOWM #457191 bullet.

Next, Forrest Asmus in Fouling Shot #64 (1985) describes his use of the Lyman 457191 300 grain bullet in his 7.5 .45 Colt Ruger Blackhawk. Asmus used a load of 22.0 grains of Winchester 296 with the CCI 350 Magnum primer. Starting off with a bullet sized .458 diameter, he had ignition problems due to his inability to place a heavy crimp on the bullet. Reducing his bullet diameter to .453 diameter (!) he was able to place a firm crimp on the bullet and improved his ignition.
Asmus estimated his velocity as around 1200 fps and described the recoil as impressive.

Serious discussion in the mainstream press about the use of heavy bullets in .45 Colt rifles appears to be limited to three articles.

The first is Ken Waters Pet Loads article from Handloader #149, Jan/Feb 1991. Using a Winchester Model 94 Trapper Waters described a serious effort to load the .45 Colt cartridge to higher performance levels in a rifle. Waters pushed the 240 grain bullets to 1480 fps, 250 grain bullets to 1450 fps, and 260 grain bullets to 1400 fps. Waters describes in detail his experiences with the Colt cartridge, heavy bullets and the Winchester rifle. It is an early bit of writing for what is now considered the routine use of heavy bullets at high pressure in the .45 Colt. We handloaders have learned quite a bit since 1991. I am over simplifying this and ignoring the pioneering efforts of many handgun metallic silhouette shooters dating back as far as the mid 1970s. But I am looking primarily in the mainstream press.

Second is Jay Turners article in Rifle #151, Jan/Feb 1994. Turner also used the Winchester Trapper in .45 Colt. He pushed the 300 grain Hornady XTP to 1575 fps, the 300 grain Speer flat nose to 1485 fps, the 300 grain LBT lead bullet to 1650 fps, the 300 grain Hornady hollow point to 1630 fps and the 340 grain Lee .457” dia. flat nose cast bullet to 1404 fps.

Both of these are very informative articles to those of us looking for high performance from the .45 Colt lever action rifle and worth the effort of looking up.

The third article is by Ross Seyfried from Handloader #205, June/July 2000. Seyfrieds article entitled “Turbosharging the .45 Colt is confined to the use of the 7.5 Ruger Bisley. Seyfried drove the 300 grain LBT cast bullets to 1330 fps and used LBT style bullets as heavy as 350 grains.

The above article is a serious beginning for anyone wanting to explore heavy bullets in the .45 Colt rifle. I am interested in hearing about any other articles containing specific load information on the use of heavy bullets in these rifles. For those using the .454 Rifles dont overlook 2guntommy and his 454 website. Beartooth forum member dztram frequents both boards.

I should be able to shoot my loads tomorrow morning.

 

Well, shot the Colt loads in the back yard this morning. All the Dove hunters out making noise - thought I would too.

Both bullets used 20.0 grains of Winchester 296 and Remington Lg Pistol primers.

The Lyman 457122 averaged 355.5 grains and sized to .457" and seated to 1.600". Lubed with Javalina Alox. All of these were loaded in Remington brass. A six shot string averaged 1411 fps from the 16" Winchester Trapper. The E was 12 and the SD 6 fps. At fifty yards these shot 3.5" lower than my 250 grain load. Group was just under three inches from my wobbly bench using open sights.

The NEI solid version of the Gould bullet averaged 368.8 grains lubed with Javalina Alox and fitted with Hornady gas checks. I mixed the brass on these. Used Starline, Remington, Winchester and CBC. Six of these averaged 1405 fps with an E of 10 and SD of 5 fps. Not a lot of difference in point of impact. just a little smaller groups perhaps.

I need to shoot these at the range from a good bench. There was no indication of leading from either bullet. With the Lyman bullet giving about 1557 fpe and the NEI bullet giving 1600 fpe there seems to plenty for deer hunting at least.

 

Thanks for the posts Slim.

Your stats sound promising. Why are you restricting yourself to 1.6" COL with the M94? I need to figure out what .45 Colt carbine to start looking for. The M94 has a longer action but a 26" twist; whereas, the M1894 Marlin has a shorter action but a 16" twist. Hanging out at the Cowboy shooting games that take place about an hour south of here isn't going to help 'cause those boys are shooting plinking loads.

What do you suppose the heaviest practical bullet weight is for the M94 and 1894? Please comment on currently available 45 rifle moulds you may find suitable (in addition to 457122). I don't think I want to mess with Lee's .45 rifle moulds because the grease grooves are too shallow. How is NEI doing now anyway? I made a call to NEI during the fist part of '04 and had no confidence in their ability after my conversation with the mould maker. What about RCBS and SAECO plain base 45 rifle moulds?

BTW, I signed up for that Cast Bullets Yahoo list a few days ago, started getting mass quantities of email that wasn't of interest to me so I took myself off the mailing list. My Yahoo account still exists though.

Regards,
TMC

 

First, about Yahoo groups. I suggest that you select Daily Digest. That will give you ne or two e-mails a day. If you dont want any select no-E-mail. This will allow you to search the past posts from the beginning.

If you want the heaviest bullet available go for the LBT 350 grain. Marshall has a wide selection of bullets for the .454 Casull, up to 405 grains I think. I would start with a selection of these to see what shot best. Then you could order a mold or just stay with Marshall's bullets.

NEI has the #337 350 grain bullet. There are several threads on the CB-L about NEI. The general opinion - last I remember is they now have their act together.

You can look at the LBT catalog on the front page of Leverguns.

I restricted myself to 1.600" COAL due to something I read once about Winchester 296 and Hodgdon 110 giving their best performance when the bullet is seated against the powder coloum.
Ross Seyfried said once that with a five shot revolver you could load all of the 296 you could get into the case and still seat the bullet against the powder and within the cylinders overall length. Not exactly a quote - and he probably would say I over simplified it!

I think 350 grains is the heaviest bullet that is useful in the .45 Colt but that is only a guess. Things are changing pretty fast. I need to work with Hodgdon 'Lil Gun before I use absolutes!
It is important to note that while I was able to exceed standard "high pressure" Colt loads in handguns by 350 to 400 fps, the custom 7.5" 5 shot handguns only give up 100 to 150 fps to the 16" rifle.

My thoughts at the moment are that Hodgdon 'Lil Gun or 295 and 110 are the powders of choice for heavy bullet loads. These powders should not require an excessive COAL. I'll have a look at it.

The recoil was not what I thought it would be. I have been doing a lot of .25-35 and low velocity .45-70 shooting lately and expected worse. I have been pushed around pretty badly by a less than 6 pound .44 Magnum!

 

It looks to me like Speer is also thinking along the lines of seating the bullet down hard on the powder. The Speer #13 Manual lists .45 Colt Contender/Ruger Blackhawk data for their 300 graun jacketed bullet.
This bullet is listed as seated .211" deep. The charge is 23.0 grains of Winchester 296 or 23.5 grains of Hodgdon 110. W296 giving 1193 fps and the H110 load giving 1156 fps from the 7.5" barrel. Both loads use the CCI Magnum primer. Speer says these loads were developed using copper crusher equipment and they are 25,000 CUP. The high expansion ration keeping the pressure down. The intersting thing about this load is the COAL of 1.640", the ball powder being for all practical purposes un-compressable.

 

Slim,

.211" is not very deep. I just slowly poured 25 grains of #9 into a Starline .45Colt case and still had a .450" neck. Did the same with a Starline .44Mag case but could only fit 22 grains with .450" of case remaining from the top of the powder charge to the mouth. I don't think #9 is much more dense than 296.

TMC

P.S. I just looked up the bulk densities of #9 and 296. They are .975 and .989 respectively so one can actually get more 296 in a cartridge case than #9 (about 1% more). H110 is actually less dense than either at .964 grams per cc. This is where I'm getting my data (the chart also displays grains/cc):

http://www.nfa.ca/cfj-archive/reloading/smokeless-powder-bulk-density-charts.html

 

TMC
I was either asleep or distracted when I typed that seating depth. I typed in the sectional density instead!

My chart says that Winchester 296, Hodgdon 110 and Accurate Arms No. 9 all share a density of .975 with water as the 1.0.

My Lyman 457122HP bullet is .930” long. With a coal of 1.60” I am seating this one .610” deep. A rough figure this morning gives a 16.7 gr water capacity. Now at the risk of my brain failing me two times in a row… I think this leaves me a17.12 gr powder capacity. I am giving some thought to this because I have always thought of Winchester 296 as being incompressible.

The NEI gascheck solid version of the Gould bullet is .928” long with the gas check attached. This bullet is seated .608” deep. Leaving about 16.8 gr of water in the case.

I need to hit these bullets with the Lee hardness tester. I was shooting for 18 BHN but may be a bit softer. They seem to not only expand well but also penetrate deeply into the backstop. I did not recover very many.

Tonight I’ll dig up the correct seating depth for the Speer bullet. I have a friend with a Marlin Cowboy Rifle in .45 Colt. If I can I’ll get together with him and we’ll compare the long and short barrels.

 

Slim,

I'm just checking in to see if you've posted any more info. I just purchased the last 457122 currently available from Midsouth even though I have nothing to shoot it from for now.

TMC

 

TMC

I like the mold. I have had no troubles with mine. It is not a fast mold but we really dont need a lot of hollow point cast bullets after we find the loads we like.

I am thinking this weekend I will play with Hodgdon 'Lil Gun and H110.

 

I am looking at some load data from Hodgdon for heavy weight bullets in the .45 Colt. For a 350 grain WLN lead gas check bullet Hodgdon suggests a starting load of 15.5 grains of Lil’Gun. A maximum load of 18.0 grains is listed at 29,700 CUP. I figure I will try three different strings at 16.0, 17.0 and 18.0 grains. There are two small complications. Hodgdon is using a .452” bullet diameter and a 1.680” COAL. I’ll seat a bullet in an empty case tonight and ensure that a 1.680” cartridge will cycle through the action. There is a significant difference between the weight forward design of the LBT bullets and the 457122 and NEI solid that I will be using – the advantage lies in the LBT design. Fortunately I can load at the bench – that will save pulling bullets if the visual pressure indicators look a little high.

 

These threads have a habit of getting away from me. I miss things. I was asked about pan lubing due to TMC’s comment. Here are a couple of pictures of a Lee pan lube kit. I have a bunch of these. I have lubed and sized thousands of 148-grain wad cutters over the years. Sure was nice when I could finally afford a Lyman 450 sizer lubricator. I still use the pans and kake cutters some. The picture shows some home made kake cutters made from cut off cartridge cases. I think these hand sizers would still be a slow but steady seller for Lee. It’s too bad they dropped them.

 

I am looking at the latest issue of Handloader this morning. Editor Dave Scoville has a very good little piece on .45 Colt chamber dimensions, lead alloy hardness and accuracy. Scovills thought fit right in with this discusson.
This is Handloader #237, Octorber 2005.

 

Shot the .45 Colt loads between rain showers. Hot and humid without a breath of air moving. All shot using the 16” Winchester Trapper.
Reshot the .20.0 grain Winchester 296 load. This one again with a COAL of 1.600” and R-P cases and Remington Large Pistol primers. All bullets sized to 457”
45712HP averaged 1421 fps with an E of 7 and SD of 4 fps. These ate one big hole in the paper about 2 ¼” in dia.

With the NEI solid I got 1438 fps and an E of 5 and SD of 2 fps. About the same size group at fifty yards. These both shot to point of aim with the open sight elevator on the second notch.


With 20.0 grains of Hodgdon 110 the 457122HP got 1428 fps with an E of 11 and SD of 6 fps. This appears to be a very good load with a groups size right at or just under 2.0”. Good shooting for me. This little rifle jumps around on the bags quite a bit.

The NEI solid bullet got 1415 fps with an E of 5 and SD of 2 fps. The group is right about the same with no flyers.

This Hodgdon 110 load looks like it should be looked at a little more closely. The ammunition lying on the bench was hot to the touch, as was the rifle. The sun had come out and it was getting hot fast. The primers have a good flat base with no machine marks in them but the firing pin indent is square and sharp.

Switching to 18.5 grains of Hodgdon Lil’ Gun the 457122HP got 1426 fps with an E of 14 and an SD of 7 fps. This string had one low velocity shot. Not certain why that was but it turned a 2.5” group into a 3.25” group.

The same load with the NEI solid averaged 1449 fps with an E of 4 and an SD of 2 fps. Group size was just less than 2.5”.

Lil’ Gun looks like a very good powder for heavy bullet loads.

Switching to IMR 4227 with the same components and COAL of 1.636" and light powder compression.
457122HP got 1410 fps with an E of 11 and SD of 6 fps. This group closer to 2.5”.

With the NEI solid I got 1406 fps with an E of 13 and SD of 6 fps. This group just under 2.5”.


Now that I have done a little chronographing I will try to get to the range and shoot the rest for groups from a good bench.

 

Slim,

Yeah, I've read the article and am now wondering if I should buy a M94 instead of the 1894 Marlin. I'll probably end up shooting 457122 from an 1895!

TMC

 

William,

Thank you for all the additional info. Intereting that you are getting over 1,400 f.p.s. in your 16" Trapper with the 457122 bullet ..... slightly more than my 24" barrel produces. Your bullet seating depth is .10" more than mine which would make some difference though due to increased pressure as would different powder lots, primers & brass.

It would be interesting to run your ammunition through your friends 24" Marlin to see what the difference between it and your 16" would be. There may not be that much difference!


To add to your excellent list of references, in Fouling Shot #78 there was a page showing ".45 Colt Cast Bullet Pressure Data".

The list is comprised of loads submitted to Hodgdon Powder Co. by Jim Taylor and John Linebaugh.

Testing was taken in a 7" barrel. The heaviest bullet tested was a 320 gr. LBT. 23.5/ H-110/ Fed 150 primer developed 29,900 CUP and 1,280 f.p.s. The seating depth is not listed but is probably the same as the 330 gr.LBT's that I have which is .42".

Another load they show is with the NEI 310 gr. The same 23.5/ H-110/ Fed 150 primer developed higher pressure....31,900 CUP at 1,316 f.p.s. No doubt it was seated deeper into the case which increased pressures.

Hodgdon Manual 26th edition shows 20.5 / H-110 with a 350 gr bullet (assuming Jacketed) at 30,000 CUP and 1,061 f.p.s. in a 7" barrel.

Sincerely,
John

 

I'll look that one up tonight - thanks. I have the index but it is easy to miss one!

Our velocity difference is interesting. I wonder if with the large expansion ratio the bullets could be slowinging down a little... My pal Fosutle lurks on this board. I'll try to get with him and see if we can shoot together.

 

Well Done John!

Don’t know how I missed that page. To find reliable pressure data for 300+ grain bullets in the .45 Colt is very beneficial.
While the data is not the exact same type of apple at least it is apples!
I am assuming they weighed these bullets before they seated them. If that is the case and the cast bullet weight is accurate I would guess that my loads shown in this thread for Winchester 296 and Hodgdon 110 should be considered maximum – at the COAL of 1.600”.
I note they used non-magnum primers with bullets sized to .452”. With my bullets being rather soft and sized to .457” I belive I will not go any higher with these two powders.

I will look carefully at Hodgdon Lil’ Gun before raising the charge levels.

 

William,

The only reason that I was aware of that data was because over the years I made copies of any worthwhile info about the .45 Colt and put it in a binder, otherwise I would have missed it as well.

Actually, Hodgdon has quite a bit of data on heavy bullets in the .45 Colt on their webpage. Please see
http://www.hodgdon.com/data/pistol/45coltlil.php

You may already be aware of that and it includes a lot of useful info. It's too bad that the bullet seating dapth is not indicated. The LBT bullets as we know are typically shorter for their weight.

I have found that the 20 gr load of 296/H110 is a good one with the heavy bullets. Back in the 70's I worked up to that load with Lyman's 457192, a 350 gr. bullet, for the purpose of downing those 200 yard 55# Steel rams with my Ruger .45 Colt. The .44 Magnum was about 70% positive using the 240-265 gr. bullets but the old .45 Colt with the 457192 bullet never left one standing!

Ray Meketa from Alaska wrote an article for Handloader in 1974 using up to 300 gr.bullets in the .45 Colt. That article inspired me to begin working with the heavier bullets.

J.D. Jones, noted handgun authority, attended some of those 1970's IHMSA matches at the same club and became interested in the heavy .45 Colt bullet loads I was using. I gave him some bullets to try and a few years later he began marketing bullet molds for .44 caliber for 300+ gr. bullets.

Sincerely,
John

 

I made copies of any worthwhile info about the .45 Colt and put it in a binder,

John, I do the same thing! I have binders for sights, bullet performance etc.

" The LBT bullets as we know are typically shorter for their weight. "

Yes, a real advantage for Veral Smiths bullet designs. He has a post this morning on Leverguns about his wifes health issues. He is in our prayers. I find his post inspiring and uplifting. I do not underestimate the power of prayer.


"Ray Meketa from Alaska wrote an article for Handloader in 1974 using up to 300 gr.bullets in the .45 Colt. That article inspired me to begin working with the heavier bullets."

I'll look that one up. Jay Turner did an interesting story for handloader on the Dan Wesson in .45 Colt. The problem is he did not use heavy bullets.


"J.D. Jones, noted handgun authority,"

Yes I well remeber these heavy bullets. At the time I was only just seeing the need!

[Edit - While not “Mainstream Press” and most of us have seen these before I think the links should be in this thread.


http://www.linebaughcustom.com/Default.aspx?tabid=112

http://www.linebaughcustom.com/Default.aspx?tabid=113

http://www.linebaughcustom.com/Default.aspx?tabid=114

 

John,
Tried to post this yesterday but I wanted to include two pictures. I kept getting a fatal error and gave up.

I have a summer cold that is making me feel miserable.
Here are a couple of pictures for John. On the left is the 457122HP at a COAL of 1.595”. Next is the same bullet at a COAL of 1.700”. Then the NEI Solid version and the Sierra 300 grain JFN bullet, all at 1.700”. The cast bullets are sized to .457”. The Sierra is .4515” just below the cannelure. At the base and just above the cannelure the bullet measures .4505”. I assume this is to keep the pressure down.
These all cycle through the magazine and chamber fine in the Winchester Trapper. One interesting thing about them though. At a COAL of 1.595” I can cycle the action fast or slowly and the rounds feed easily. At a COAL of 1.700” the Trapper prefers to be cycled quickly, or I should say with purpose. If I open the lever with a snap to full down and back up the rounds cycle easily. Working the action slowly the rounds tend to hesitate when they snap out of the magazine. I do not think they would cycle reliably at a longer COAL.


So, filled up on Dayquill and set up to shoot. Its 90 degrees outside already and with my little fever I didn’t last long! I fired fifteen shots.
Some very interesting things are beginning to emerge. First I shot three strings of the NEI #338 Solid Gould bullet. As said above these are all loaded the same except the COAL is 1.700”.
20.0 grains of Winchester 296 gave me 1354 fps with an E of 37 and SD of 18 fps.
20.0 grains of Hodgdon 110 gave me 1380 fps with an E of 15 and SD of 8 fps.
22.0 grains of IMR 4227 gave me 1367 fps with an E of 5 and Sd of 2 fps.

So at the increased COAL I dropped the velocity 84 fps for W296, 35 fps for H110, and 39 fps for IMR 4227.
I am wondering what the result would have been if I had used magnum primers?
I note that IMR 4227 did very well at the increased COAL.
I said earlier I am recovering these in some Kevlar material. It is interesting to note the bases of both bullets are cupped, similar to what we see with high pressure .357 Magnum loads. All recovered NEI bullets still have the Hornady gas checks attached. As I said in our sidebar msg. It will be interesting to see how the 300 grain Sierra bullets compare for accuracy and uniformity. I want to see if the jacketed bullet bases display the same cupping.
Can’t wait to shoot the rest of these. Possibly tomorrow.

 

William,

Thank you for the additional data. Interesting!

Sorry to hear that you are not feeling well. If it's hanging on too long start taking 50mg of Zinc and 2 grams of Vitamin C (1 gram Am & 1 gram PM). That will give your immune system some "ammunition" to get rid of the unwanted visitor.

"So at the increased COAL I dropped the velocity 84 fps for W296, 35 fps for H110, and 39 fps for IMR 4227.
I am wondering what the result would have been if I had used magnum primers?"

Almost 1 f.p.s. per .001 inch less of bullet seating depth.
I have been wondering the same thing about the mag. pistol primers. I have been going to try some 155 Federals just to see what the difference would be, but I am currently wrapped up in some .32 Long Colt '92 Marlin and some .44-40 stuff. Perhaps by later October, I will be able to do some testing.

It seems like the more testing we do, the more questions there are?!

Interesting also about the cupped bases.

John

 

Quote] Almost 1 f.p.s. per .001 inch less of bullet seating depth.
I have been wondering the same thing about the mag. pistol primers. I have been going to try some 155 Federals just to see what the difference would be, but I am currently wrapped up in some .32 Long Colt '92 Marlin and some .44-40 stuff. Perhaps by later October, I will be able to do some testing.

It seems like the more testing we do, the more questions there are?!

Interesting also about the cupped bases.

John[/QUOTE]

I may look at the primer issue one day.

We shoot a 24" .32 H&R mag barrel on our TC carbine. Good shooter. Do you remeber C. E. Harris recent article in the Fouling Shot on hir H&R break open rifle in .32 Mag?
When you get to your testing let us know how it goes.

Yes, it is funny how the more we look the more questions we have. So many interesting projects!

I am still having trouble figuring pictures. I'll get some help and post the picture of the loaded cartridges and of some of the bases so you can see the cupping.

Feeling better this afternoon!

Edit[Lost my mind and forgot to add. While these are stout loads and are impressive to shoot and to see hit the recovery box, at roughly 1600 fpe they are not realy very powerful. A 26" Trapdoor with low pressure .45-70 loads generates about 1700 fps with the 350 grain bullet. Not as handy a package I'll grant you. My Marlin Guide Gun with the same bullets will exceed 1900 fps with good accuracy. I will say the .45-70 loads leave me with a recoil headache. Shooting fifty of these high pressure Colt loads did not. My shoulder was sore but no serious discomfort.
For perspective the .500 S&W X Frame revolver with 8 3/8 in barrel will push a 350 grain Hornady 1674 fps. A 370 grain LBT bullet at 1875 fps. I know I could shoot the Trapper more accuratly and quicker.... Imagine how interesting a hi-wall in .500 S&W would be! ]Edit